Gaugamela

[jona]

Dear Companions,I've posted an article on the battle of Gaugamela online at http://www.livius.org/aj-al/alexander/a ... _z7.htmlIt is perhaps a bit long, but the conclusion may be interesting.Jona

[jan]

Hello Jona,I really appreciate your post and your article. There are several statements in it that substantiate something that I believe about Alexander in his frightening King Darius so much.
I am of the opinion that when Alexander is in his militant state, a ferocity in him is terrifying to his target victim. You seem to have confirmed this in your article.
I also like the bust of Alexander that you have placed here, as it resembles a portrait bust of George Washington as well. Fascinating to me.

[amyntoros]

Jona, it is a wonderful to read an account of the battle that includes insight from people other than the Greeks and Romans. However, once again, I have a question. You wrote that "Astrology was not a secret doctrine. We can assume that educated Babylonians in Darius' army, such as Mazaeus, would have known the fate of their king was sealed." Now I had transcribed something recently and though it took me a heck of a time to find it again, I finally remembered that Cicero was the source. He says: On Divination. Book I, Chapter XLI.
...Among the Persians they have augurs and diviners, called magi, who at certain seasons all assemble in a temple for mutual conference and consultation; as your college also used once to do on the nones of the month. And no man can become a king of Persia who is not previously initiated in the doctrine of the magi.Is there any truth in this? Would Darius himself have known in detail what the signs and portents meant, and would there have been an attempt to initiate Alexander in the doctrine?Best regards,Linda Ann

[jona]

The Persian Magi were specialists in memorizing sacred texts; they assisted when someone had to make a sacrifice. Perhaps they had secret teaching, I don't know.They are not identical to the Chaldaeans, the astrologers/astronomers. Confusing them is easy; many ancient sources make the mistake - most famously Matthew, who speaks of "Magoi" following a celestial sign and arriving in Jerusalem.Chaldaean wisdom was not a secret. It is interesting to see that not only this Jew Samuel was allowed to study with the Chaldaeans, but also Callisthenes. The Early Byzantine philosopher Simplikios and the Arabian scholar Ibn Khaldun both declare that Callisthenes copied the Astronomical Diaries (see http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?par ... %20Diaries ).One day, I will add the correct references, but not now. Over here in Holland it's 2.50 AM and I am off to bed.J

[rollsrite]

thankyou jona for the pages that you graciously let me read. i was wondering how i could ever read your book when i only read english. also am tackeling THE ILLIAD, this is because of the inspiration from people like you and other members of the forum that have showed me to use my mind. tina

[yiannis]

Just a few comments as I read along...When you mention that "Seventy years earlier, a Yaun+ó army, led by the rebel Persian Prince Cyrus the Younger, had been defeated in Babylonia and largely destroyed on its way home." you obviously refer to the battle of Cunaxa and Xenophon's Anabasis. Do you suggest that in the eyes of the Persian commanders this was a victory? But in that battle, the Greek wing of Cyrus' army crushed the opposing Persian one without losing 1 hoplite! The battle was won but Cyrus was foolishly killed. Then the 10000, starting from the hart of the persian empire, marched all the way to the Greek cities of the Black sea, crushing in their way all opposing Persian forces. If I may add, without any archers or cavalry support (at least initially) and with their Strategoi treacherously murdered.
This is considered to be one of the major indicators of weakness of the Persian state not the opposite.When it comes to your conclusion, I accept as a fact that Darious has fought until his troops "deserted" him but they did so once they were defeated by Alexander's army and they saw no point of resistance. Moreover there was no loyalty in Darious army. Why should these untrained people fight for a monarch? At least the Greeks fought for a clear cause (booty, power and their lives) and they knew they would all get a share out of it! Not to mention that most of them were veterans and professional soldiers.Oh well, just a few rants of mine!

[jona]

"Do you suggest that in the eyes of the Persian commanders this was a victory?"Yes. Of course you're right that Cunaxa was a Greek victory, but from an overall perspective, the campaign was disastrous. Ignoring Cyrus' fate: out of 14,000 Greek hoplites, a mere 6,000 returned. You can win a victory and lose a campaign.BTW, Yiannis: I tried to mail you in Tehran, but got an error message. I hope you've settled and enjoyed your visit to the Archaeological Museum. Islamic Museum if beautiful too.Jona

[jona]

The Iliad is beautiful, although I confess that the second half of the second book is a bit tedious. Yet: enjoy it!Jona

[yiannis]

My understanding is that there were 8000 who reached the sea and less than 13000 who started the journey. The vast number of the inficted casualties was due to the hardships (especially snow on Armenian mountains) rather than the effectiveness of the imperial army.
"At the same time, also, came Sosis the Syracusian with three thousand hoplites, and Sophaenetus the Arcadian[6] with one thousand hoplites; and here Cyrus held a review, and numbered his Hellenes in the park, and found that they amounted in all to eleven thousand hoplites and about two thousand peltasts. "

[yiannis]

Jona, I've been for 10 days now in Tehran and things are fine. I already found a nice furnished appartment but work from morning till night!
I've been to a couple of places so far but not to the Archaeological museum. Hopefully soon...
I'll be glad to welcome you in Tehran!
Mail me at: yiannis95@hotmail.com