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alexander
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:06 am
by bob
Alexander the Great is a gay hero
Re: alexander
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:40 am
by Robert
I'm gay too.
Re: alexander
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:08 pm
by Nick Christakes
...great, I mean really, good for you...now have a nice day, and don't come back unless you can be respectful of the other memebers in the forum.
Re: alexander
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:02 am
by marcus
Hey Nick,I don't think there was any disrespect in that post. A total lack of relevance to anything, perhaps...All the bestMarcus
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:21 am
by Thomas
I don't think that either post was offensive?Both of the posts were statements of fact weren't they?Alexander is a gay icon/hero, because of the way many in the modern world look at his relationship with Hepaistion. I think that it could be seen as a kick start for a discussion that would be relevant for this board.And whether Robert wants to state his sexuality or not is up to him (but clearly off topic).
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:07 am
by Mary
If you are not interested in history and its values, leave the place to someone else.
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 8:53 am
by marcus
Thomas,I agree, so long as we don't allow it to degenerate into another "he was gay", "no he wasn't" argument. I don't think I could survive another of those.The question of what makes him a gay icon etc. is interesting (which makes it a question of historiography, not of his actual sexuality) - for a start, I'd like to know what qualities make a 'gay icon' - it surely can't be simply being gay, because loads of heterosexual women are referred to as 'gay icons' (Shirley Bassey, Kylie Minogue etc.).So let's have that discussion by all means, but please let's regulate it in some way!All the bestMarcus
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:00 am
by Robert
I am sorry that you don't like me. i did not mean what i said in an offensive way. i would like to apologize about all those that i hurt.However, i think that it would be a very interesting discussion to see who thinks what about alexander. i see him as a gay hero because it was proved that he was gay and he was one of the greatest generals of all time. He is someone that all gay people can relate to.please answer me and we can have a productive conversation.
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:44 pm
by Susan
History covers a lot of areas including gayness. A hero can't decide 2300 years posthumously that he doesn't want to appeal to certain sections of the public and provided he is treated with respect gay hero-worship shouldn't be treated differently than hetero-sexual hero-worship.I think that it can be taken for granted that Alexander was partly but not exclusively gay and the whole matter can be relegated to the status of the appearance and blond hair argument. It crops up periodically, one side says 'Yes he was' and the other side says 'No he wasn't', and rapidly moves off-topic.One of Alexander's main claims to fame was his inclusiveness and I think the forum should reflect this.
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:47 pm
by Susan
RobertI think Alexander would have loved being regarded as a hero, no matter who it came from.
Re: alexander
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:50 pm
by John
I don't think Alexander liked gay people very much.Once, when offered a gay boy by some distant governor, Alexander responded with a furious letter against the maker of such an offer.And don't forget Chaironea, where Alexander slaughtered the Theban Sacred Band, who were famous for being gay. And notice Philip's (who was notorious for indulging in gay sex, him and his entourage) reaction. Philip stood over the carnage that Alexander had made of the gay Theban Sacred Band, and said, "Let no one say that these men were not noble." What made him say that? Alexander's hatred of homosexuality, perhaps?John
Re: alexander
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:08 am
by Susan
Have you read the section on this forum about sex ? There is plenty of evidence that Alexander was bisexual - if you disregard evidence that you don't like then why stop at the bits about boys - why not carry on and say that Alexander had nothing to do with some of the darker deeds of his reign.Why Alexander was angry about being offered the boy was that it implied that he could be bribed in this way and that he would accept someone else's choice of sexual partner for him.It would be a similar insult now if a leading politician or statesman was publicly offered a girl - they would be angry too.Susan
Re: alexander
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:33 am
by John
I guess if I was into FICTION, I could read "The Persian Boy," and make myself believe that Alexander had a gay lover called Bagoas. (Why do people want to make that kind of stuff up?) But I don't know of any REAL evidence that Alexander was into homosexuality. This is totally unlike Philip, his father, who let homosexuality run rampant at his court. One historian (Theopompous, Isocrates' student) called Philip's court a gay whorehouse, or something.See, Alexander was DIFFERENT from his father Philip.John
Re: alexander
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 4:11 am
by Susan
Bagoas appears in Plutarch, where Alexander kisses him in public (section 67) to the applause and encouragement of the Macedonians.he also appears in Curtius (6.5.23) where Nabarzanes brought Alexander lavish gifts including Bagoas,an exceptionally good-looking eunuch in the very flower of his youth. Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did too.
and Curtius (10.1.27)..Bagoas, who by now had gained Alexander's affection through putting his body at his service. He {Orsines]was advised by certain people of Alexander's strong attachment to Bagoas and he replied that he paid his respect to the king's friends, not his whores and that it was not the Persian custom to regard as men those who allowed themselves to be sexually used as women.There is more which I'll add later - but this seems quite clear.
Re: alexander
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 4:38 am
by John
Well, Curtius relies for his history mostly on Cleitarchus, who was notoriously untrustworthy and fanciful, and Plutarch uses him sometimes, too.I know Bagoas existed; he helped Darius assassinate Arses, and gain the throne - unjustly, according to Alexander. - I would only believe he was Alexander's lover if there was a more trustworthy source that said so than Curtius (Cleitarchus), or one statement thrown out of the blue by Plutarch.John