Birthday again; a study in method now with poll!

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Should the site's essay on Alexander's Birthday be revised ?

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agesilaos
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Birthday again; a study in method now with poll!

Post by agesilaos »

The reason for this post is not a perverse obsession with the date of Alexander’s birth but a perverse concern for ‘good method’; the piece on his birthday contains the assertions
The British scholar Nicholas Hammond made a thorough analysis of the probable dating of Alexander's birth in his "Sources for Alexander the Great" (Cambridge, 1993). Hammond shows that Plutarch probably got his date of 6th of the Attic month Hecatombaeon 356 B.C. for Alexander's birthday from a contemporary writer, Timaeus, who was also born in 356 B.C.
And
Basically, Cicero gives essentially the same story about Alexander's birth and the temple of Ephesus burning down as Plutarch does, and he too attributes it to Timaeus.
This is simply wrong as Plutarch cites Hegesias not Timaeus; and there is no given year for the birth of Timaeus, pseudo-Lucian 'Macrobioi' 22 says he lived 96 years and it seems his History ended in 264 BC (Polybios starts his History where Timaeus ended)but there is no year for either his birth or death But Hammond's claim needs examining.
Plutarch Life of Alexander

3 However, after his vision, as we are told, Philip sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to Delphi, by whom an oracle was brought to him from Apollo, who bade him sacrifice to Ammon and hold that god in greatest reverence, 2 but told him he was to lose that one of his eyes which he had applied to the chink in the door when he espied the god, in the form of a serpent, sharing the couch of his wife. 3 Moreover, Olympias, as Eratosthenes says, when she sent Alexander forth upon his great expedition, told him, and him alone, the secret of his begetting, and bade him have purposes worthy of his birth. 4 Others, on the contrary, say that she repudiated the idea, and said: "Alexander must cease slandering me to Hera."

5 Be that as it may, Alexander was born early in the month Hecatombaeon, the Macedonian name for which is Loüs, on the sixth day of the month, and on this day the temple of Ephesian Artemis was burnt. 6 It was apropos of this that Hegesias the Magnesian made an utterance frigid enough to have extinguished that great conflagration. He said, namely, it was no wonder that the temple of Artemis was burned down, since the goddess was busy bringing Alexander into the world.7 But all the Magi who were then at Ephesus, looking upon the temple's disaster as a sign of further disaster, ran about beating their faces and crying aloud that woe and great calamity for Asia had that day been born. 8 To Philip, however, who had just taken Potidaea, there came three messages at the same time: the first that Parmenio had conquered the Illyrians in a great battle, the second that his race-horse had won a victory at the Olympic games, while a third announced the birth of Alexander. 9 These things delighted him, of course, and the seers raised his hopes still higher by declaring that the son whose birth coincided with three victories would be always victorious.
It is the emboldened passage that concerns us most but i give the whole chapter to set it in context. The first question we must ask is how much should be ascribed to Hegesias? Certainly verse six and probably seven but is there any reason to drag the statement about the date of Alexander’s birthday into the fragment? Once upon a time the trend was to try and allocate as much material to the primary source as possible, these days a much more conservative approach is adopted. On that approach the date would be excluded since it should be clear that the fact to which Hegesias’ frigid utterance is the burning of the temple of Artemis and not the foregoing matter. Those wishing to include the date would, presumably credit verses eight and nine as well. It is certainly not impossible but it is unrelated to the context Plutarch supplies for his Hegesian reference, towhit, the fire at Ephesos and so should be excluded.

We must now examine the claim that this reference is actually from Timaeus, the foundation for which is a passage in Cicero’s ‘De Natura Deorum’, again I give the whole chapter for context,
DE NATURA DEORUM, II.
XXVII. Also, as the beginning and the end are the most important parts of all affairs, they held that Janus is the leader in a sacrifice, the name being derived from ire (' to go '), hence the names jani for archways and januae for the front doors
of secular buildings. Again, the name Vesta comes from the Greeks, for she is the goddess whom they call Hestia. Her power extends over altars and
hearths, and therefore all prayers and all sacrifices end with this goddess, because she is the guardian of the innermost things. Closely related to this function are the Penates or household gods, a name derived either from penus, which means a store of human food of any kind, or from the fact that they reside penitus, in the recesses of the house, owing to which they are also called penetrales by the poets. The name Apollo again is Greek ; they say that he is the sun, and Diana they identify with the moon ; the word sol being from solus, either because the sun ' alone ' of all the heavenly bodies is of that magnitude, or because when the sun rises all the stars are dimmed and it ‘ alone ' is visible ; while the name luna is derived from lucere ' to shine ' ; for it is the same word as Lumia, and therefore in our country Juno Lucina is invoked in childbirth, as is Diana in her manifestation as Lucifera (the Light-bringer) among the Greeks. She is also called Diana Omnivaga (wide-wandering), not from her hunting, but because she is counted one of the seven planets or ‘wanderers ' (vagari). She was called Diana because she made a sort of day in the night-time. She is invoked to assist at the birth of children, because the period of gestation is either occasionally seven, or more usually nine, lunar revolutions, and these are called menses (months), because they cover measured (mensa) spaces. Timaeus in his history with his usual aptness adds to his account of the burning of the temple of Diana of Ephesus on the night on which Alexander was born the remark that this need cause no surprise, since Diana was away from home, wishing to be present when Olympias was brought to bed. Venus was so named by our countrymen as the goddess who ' comes ' (venire) to all things ; her name is not derived from the word venustas (beauty) but rather venustas from it.
One fact is immediately apparent; there is no mention of any date here but Cicero is clearly giving Timaeus the dubious credit for that lame remark plagiarism is cetainly a possibility but given the proximity of the two author’s floruits probably unlikely.

It is clear that Plutarch is writing from his notes, he mentions other sources naming Eratosthenes and noticing variant traditions. Cicero, on the other hand is interrupting an etymological waffle with an aside from the top of his head, the story not being germane to his thread. He is clearly muddled as his reason for calling on Diana during childbirth is ludicrous; it was her own labour-free birth that gave her a purview over births not the fact that pregnancy lasts a period of months! This need not mean that Cicero has mis-remembered, he would surely have spotted the error when he revised his draft before publication. The trouble is that it is generally thought that this was an unfinished work that had not proceeded beyond a first draft.

Further there would have been a good reason for Cicero to have Timaeus on his mind; during the summer of 45 BC (when ‘On the Nature of the Gods’ was being written cf ep ad Att. XIII 8) Cicero was not only engaged with ‘Tusculan Disputations’ he was also translating Plato’s ‘Timaeus’, quotations and allusions to which are scattered throughout the ‘Nature of the Gods’.

Given that Plutarch is writing specifically about Alexander and has his references, or at least his notes from those references, to hand how likely is it that the error is his? Any abbreviations of EGHSIAS and TIMAIOS are unlikely to have become confused. Whereas Cicero is writing the first draft of a work not concerned with Alexander at all and, it would seem, is dictating from the top of his head, certainly any sources he read in preparation were philosophical tracts, two of which he borrowed specifically for the purpose from Atticus. Is it not likely then that considering the sychronism of his work on Plato’s Timaeus he has had a lapsus memoriae which has remained due to the un-revised nature of the work.

So even if you insist on including the date data that should be firmly ascribed to Hegesias and not Timaeus whom Plutarch does not mention.
Last edited by agesilaos on Wed May 30, 2012 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by Taphoi »

But Plutarch used Cleitarchus extensively and Cleitarchus used Timaeus (who occurs in two of the fragments of Cleitarchus.) Cleitarchus must also have used Hegesias, because Curtius used Cleitarchus and has a story that is echoed in a fragment of Hegesias. Hence there is a second, independent association between Hegesias and Timaeus through Cleitarchus and the coincidence of their separate mention in the context of the stories of Alexander's birth cannot be argued away as insignificant. Timaeus is the logical ultimate source of a specific Attic date, since he worked in Athens and was a specialist in chronology. He may have been cited by Hegesias or (more likely) they were both cited for aspects of the story of Alexander's birth by Cleitarchus and Plutarch only mentioned one of them in summarising. Incidentally, Cicero read Cleitarchus, so that may have been his information source too. It appears to be Cleitarchus who ties all these writers together on the topic of Alexander.

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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by agesilaos »

But Plutarch used Cleitarchus extensively


Really? Plutarch cites twenty-four authorities in his Life of Alexander, apart from Letters, with over thirty mentions, these are Aristoboulos (15 ii, 16 xv, 18 iv, 21 ix, 46 ii, 75 vi), Chares (20 ix, 24 xiv, 46 ii, 54 iv, 55 ix 70 ii) and Onesikritos (8 ii, 15 ii, 46 i, 60 vi, 61 i, 65 ii) all six times; Kallisthenes (27 iv, 33 i, 33 x) three times; Eratosthenes (3 iii, 31 v), Douris (15 ii, 46 ii), and the Ephemerides (23 iv, 76 i) twice. These are mentioned once, Aristoxenos (4 iv), Dinon (36 iv), Hegesias (3 vi), Herakleides (26 iii), Hermippos (54 i), Sotion (61 iii) and Theophrastos (4 v). And, finally, Antigenes, Antikleides, Kleitarchos, Hekataeos of Eretria, Ister, Philip of Chalkis, Philip of Theangela, Philon, Polykleitos and Ptolemy only at 46 i-ii where Plutarch lists authorities for and against the visit of the Amazon Queen. This the only mention of the ‘extensively used’ Kleitarchos and Plutarch sets him with those he clearly does not believe.

Of course, Plutarch does not cite authorities for every statement but it is clearly unsound to ascribe these to the authority of an author mentioned, but not quoted, once and that to his detriment.
and Cleitarchus used Timaeus (who occurs in two of the fragments of Cleitarchus.)


And here are those fragments
Clement of Alexandria, Stromata I 139 iv.
From this (the invasion of the Herakleidae) down to the archonship of Euainetos, in which it is said that Alexander crossed into Asia, according to Phanias, there are 715 years; according to Ephoros, 735; according to Timaios and Kleitarchos, 820; according to Eratosthenes, 774; and according to Douris, it is one thousand years from the capture of Troy to the crossing of Alexander into Asia.

Suidas: eceton; instead of ecetosan, the dual is used. ‘Let Timaios and Anaximenes say this and take Kleitarchos with them who is of one and the same mind as they are.’ And ecethn used as a dual, instead of eicon.
So, Kleitarchos appears to have used Timaios’ date for Alexander’s crossing into Asia, one could argue the reverse but it is precisely this mythological chronology upon which Timaios’ reputation was founded, whereas Kleitarchos seems to have restricted his ‘innovation’ to second-hand nit-picking, frequently based on his father Dinon’s criticisms of Ktesias, or in bombastic linguistic flourishes.

It is unclear whether the quote from the Suidas is a quote from a later writer about an unknown agreement of fact (or language) between these three historians or it is simply a made up sentence to demonstrate the use of a grammatical variant.

This does not speak of any great use of Timaios by Kleitarchos to me.
Cleitarchus must also have used Hegesias, because Curtius used Cleitarchus and has a story that is echoed in a fragment of Hegesias
Curtius used a variety of sources not just Kleitarchos, so it is just as likely, if not more so that he took his story of Gaza directly from Hegesias. Diodoros, no shirker from the bizarre has nothing of this story; you may as well substitute Ptolemy for Kleitarchos to demonstrate the logical nonsense of this statement.

. Hence there is a second, independent association between Hegesias and Timaeus through Cleitarchus and the coincidence of their separate mention in the context of the stories of Alexander's birth cannot be argued away as insignificant.
This is, of course a total misapprehension based on flawed reasoning.
Timaeus is the logical ultimate source of a specific Attic date, since he worked in Athens and was a specialist in chronology
Logic is a great buzz word but still an empty one without evidence then it is supposition and not logic. Was Timaios the only man to use Athenian dates and to treat Alexander? I think not, as for being a specialist in chronology, he was a specialist on assigning events of the mythical past to dates relating to other mythological events by a mechanism obscure to Dionysius of Halikarnassos, and expert at tracking down records of Olympic victors; this is a far cry from discovering the correct day of the month for any event.

The sad fact remains that Plutarch is not citing Hegesias for his date in Hekatombaion and Cicero’s fragment of Timaios makes no mention of it either.

You and any others may choose to believe that the 6th of Hekatombaion is a date transmitted from Timaios, but it is based on faith not historical method and I am of the opinion that whilst such things are fine in the forum the essays posted permanently on the site should display more rigour and less of what Jona Lendering might term ‘quack history’.
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by agesilaos »

Here is Hammond's 'Analysis' so that all members can judge its validity, (footnotes in the original appear in square brackets; A is Alexander C is Commentary)
In 3.5 A’s birth was dated by Plutarch to ‘the sixth day of early Hecatombaeon’. This was the first month of the Attic year, and it ran approximately from 21 June (midsummer) to 20 July. Plutarch noted that the Macedonians called it Lous (a variant form of Lwios, meaning ‘better’). This month was the tenth of the Macedonian year, which began with Dius (running approximately from late September into October), and it corresponded roughly with late July into August. The birth lying in the overlap of the two calendar months was thus in late July [So GT Griffith in HM II 54 and 772 but without any analysing of the sources of information; see also Hamilton C 7 ‘about 20 July’]. Plutarch continued in the same sentence: ‘it was on this day that the temple of Artemis at Ephesus was burnt’. That date would have been recorded in the Priestly records at Ephesus; it evidently coincided with the 6th of Hecatombaeon. Plutarch went on to mention some synchronisms. One of them was Philip’s victory in the Olympic Games, which were held every fourth year. Thus the year was 356 B.C. The news of the victory of his race-horse reached Philip together with the news of A’s birth (we do not know where Philip was at the time) [He may well have been in Thessaly; see Diod 16.14.2 under the year 357/6, and my chronology in JHS 57 (1957)44ff., pace GT Griffith in HM II 225]. Since the sacred month of the Olympic festival fell in July and August [JE Sandys ed., A Dictionary of Classsical Antiquities (London c. 1894) 429], it is acceptable that the two items of news reached Philip at the same time, say early August.
Who was the author of this information, on whom Plutarch relied? He is a Greek writer because he used the Attic chronology for the month and day and the burning of the temple at Ephesus for confirmation of the day. It was presumably he who provided the other synchronisms: two from Greek affairs – the victory at the Olympic Games and the recent fall of Potidaea, an Athenian possession (arti hrhkoti) – and one Macedonian affair, Parmenio’s defeat of the Illyrians. [Tod II 157 shows that three kings, including the Illyrian Grabus, were in league against Philip before 26 July 356BC but had not recently been defeated. Diodorus reported that they were defeated while ‘they were collecting their forces’ (16.22.3), perhaps in early August]. This author was evidently able to correlate different chronological systems: Attic, Macedonian, Ephesian and Olympic.

In 3.6-7 Plutarch enlarged on the fire at Ephesus as follows:
Hegesias the Magnesian [FRGrH 142 F3] uttered a witticism frigid enough to have put the fire out. He said ‘naturally the temple was burnt down because Artemis was occupied with the delivery of Alexander’. All the Magi who happened to be staying in Ephesus, regarding the disaster of the temple as a portent of another disaster, ran about beating their heads and shouting that a great disaster and calamity for Asia had been born that day.
It is to be noted that Plutarch cited Hegesias only for the feeble joke, and neither the synchronisation in 3.5, nor for the behaviour of the Magi; for they were both in a narrative tense and not in the accusative and infinitive. [Jacoby, FGrH II B 807 failed to notice the distinction. Hamilton C 8 saw ‘no good reason to credit’ Hegesias with more than the remark about Artemis, ie 3.6] It so happens that Cicero had mentioned both parts of Plutarch’s statement: for he said that Artemis attended the birth of A and her temple at Ephesus was burnt (N.D. 2.69), and that the night when Olympias gave birth to A was agreed to be the night of the burning of the temple, and as dawn broke next day the Magi had shouted that a plague and calamity for Asia had been born that night (Div. 1.47). It is evident that Cicero and Plutarch had a common source, directly or ultimately. Fortunately Cicero named his source for the first passage as Timaeus (FGrH 566 F 150a). Plutarch, then, drew on Hegesias for the feeble joke, but on Timaeus for the rest, namely 3.5 and 3.7-8.
Why should Timaeus have concerned himself with these matters, when he did not write about A? Two reasons may be advanced. Timaeus was born in the same year, 356 BC (he lived until 260 BC), and he may well have been interested in the birthday of his greatest contemporary. He was particularly famous for his control of precise chronology; and Polybius cited as an example Timaeus’ correlation of Attic data, priestly records, lists of Olympic victors, and records of ephors and kings at Sparta (12.10.4 and 12.11.1)[See GL Barber in OCD2 1074, and Walbank C II 374f. Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)] Similarly in the dating of A’s birth Timaeus correlated, as we have seen, Attic data, Macedonian months and events, priestly records at Ephesus and Olympic victor lists. He probably recorded it as an example of his expertise.
Since Timaeus retailed the prophecy of the magi, he was probably responsible for the prophecy made by the diviners at Philip’s court, that A would be invincible (3.9 aniketon esesthai). Both prophecies were clearly vaticinia post eventum.
How many false arguments and downright misrepresentations did you spot? :P
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by Susa the Great »

Well, this may not be very factual, but I remember I read long ago about the fire in the Temple of Artemis in Epheso, when he was born, and there was this mention of a "crying statue" or any such thing.
Do you people recall any story about a condensation phenomenom? I just can't find this anywhere on the net.
And I swear (to the Gods!) that I read that on a book.
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by amyntoros »

Susa the Great wrote:Well, this may not be very factual, but I remember I read long ago about the fire in the Temple of Artemis in Epheso, when he was born, and there was this mention of a "crying statue" or any such thing.
Do you people recall any story about a condensation phenomenom? I just can't find this anywhere on the net.
And I swear (to the Gods!) that I read that on a book.
Not about Alexander's birth, but there's this in Arrian which takes place shortly before Alexander crossed the Hellespont:
1.11 HAVING settled these affairs, he returned into Macedonia. He then offered to the Olympian Zeus the sacrifice which had been instituted by Archelaus, and had been customary up to that time; and he celebrated the public contest of the Olympic games at Aegae. It is said that he also held a public contest in honour of the Muses. At this time it was reported that the statue of Orpheus, son of Oeagrus the Thracian, which was in Pieris, sweated incessantly. Various were the explanations of this prodigy given by the soothsayers; but Aristander, a man of Telmissus, a soothsayer, bade Alexander take courage; for he said it was evident from this that there would be much labour for the epic and lyric poets, and for the writers of odes, to compose and sing about Alexander and his achievements.
Could this be what you are remembering?


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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by marcus »

I haven't been around much lately - just poking my head in from time to time - because of "other things"; but, as we're talking about the Temple of Artemis, I thought I'd just remind everyone what it looks like now. Sic transit gloria mundi, and all that ...
Temple of Artemis, Ephesus, 2011
Temple of Artemis, Ephesus, 2011
2011 Turkey 1219small.JPG (67.08 KiB) Viewed 6009 times
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by Susa the Great »

amyntoros wrote:At this time it was reported that the statue of Orpheus, son of Oeagrus the Thracian, which was in Pieris, sweated incessantly. Various were the explanations of this prodigy given by the soothsayers; but Aristander, a man of Telmissus, a soothsayer, bade Alexander take courage; for he said it was evident from this that there would be much labour for the epic and lyric poets, and for the writers of odes, to compose and sing about Alexander and his achievements.

Could this be what you are remembering?


Best regards,


OK, I mixed things up! :oops:
That's why I could't find it anywhere when I did the cross references. Thanks for that Amyntoros!

Anyway, any ideas about the reason why this statue reacted like that? I mean, laying aside the ancients' craving for metaphysical explanations, I was thinking of condensation. It reminds me of the crying statues of saints too.....
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by agesilaos »

In 3.5 A’s birth was dated by Plutarch to ‘the sixth day of early Hecatombaeon’. This was the first month of the Attic year, and it ran approximately from 21 June (midsummer) to 20 July. Plutarch noted that the Macedonians called it Lous (a variant form of Lwios, meaning ‘better’). This month was the tenth of the Macedonian year, which began with Dius (running approximately from late September into October), and it corresponded roughly with late July into August. The birth lying in the overlap of the two calendar months was thus in late July [So GT Griffith in HM II 54 and 772 but without any analysing of the sources of information; see also Hamilton C 7 ‘about 20 July’].
Now we can assess Hammond’s original reasoning; straight away he errs in his analysis, he notes that Plutarch places the birth in EARLY Hekatombaion but then has to set it in ‘late July’ in order to preserve the equation of Hekatobaion with Loios; this would be LATE in a month starting c21st June whose start is set by the summer solstice. And later Hammond will claim the responsible source has ‘control of precise chronology’.

Plutarch continued in the same sentence: ‘it was on this day that the temple of Artemis at Ephesus was burnt’. That date would have been recorded in the Priestly records at Ephesus; it evidently coincided with the 6th of Hecatombaeon.
That the date of the destruction of the Temple at Ephesos would be recorded in the priestly records seems fair enough but would that really be the only notice of such an event? Any historian of the period would have recorded it giving Plutarch and his source much more scope than Hammond allows.

Plutarch went on to mention some synchronisms. One of them was Philip’s victory in the Olympic Games, which were held every fourth year. Thus the year was 356 B.C. The news of the victory of his race-horse reached Philip together with the news of A’s birth (we do not know where Philip was at the time) [He may well have been in Thessaly; see Diod 16.14.2 under the year 357/6, and my chronology in JHS 57 (1957)44ff., pace GT Griffith in HM II 225]. Since the sacred month of the Olympic festival fell in July and August [JE Sandys ed., A Dictionary of Classsical Antiquities (London c. 1894) 429], it is acceptable that the two items of news reached Philip at the same time, say early August.
Φιλίππῳ δ’ ἄρτι Ποτείδαιαν ᾑρηκότι τρεῖς ἧκον ἀγγελίαι κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν χρόνον clearly places Philip at Potidaea ‘To Philip precisely as he seized Potidaea three pieces of news were announced at the same time.’ Since the Fourth Century had no system of instant communication it is clear Philip would have to be at Potidaea to receive the news precisely as it fell. Further, it is clear that the source of story envisions this as Philip receives THREE pieces of news, his horse’s victory, Parmenion’s victory and the birth of his son, Hammond would have him receive a fourth, the fall of Potidaea. If his chronology puts Philip in Thessaly, then he ought to doubt the validity of the synchronisms rather than twist Plutarch’s words.
Who was the author of this information, on whom Plutarch relied? He is a Greek writer because he used the Attic chronology for the month and day and the burning of the temple at Ephesus for confirmation of the day. It was presumably he who provided the other synchronisms: two from Greek affairs – the victory at the Olympic Games and the recent fall of Potidaea, an Athenian possession (arti hrhkoti) – and one Macedonian affair, Parmenio’s defeat of the Illyrians. [Tod II 157 shows that three kings, including the Illyrian Grabus, were in league against Philip before 26 July 356BC but had not recently been defeated. Diodorus reported that they were defeated while ‘they were collecting their forces’ (16.22.3), perhaps in early August]. This author was evidently able to correlate different chronological systems: Attic, Macedonian, Ephesian and Olympic.
It is quite unnecessary to associate the two sychronisms, events before Potidaea and the fire at Ephesus, it is Plutarch who has brought them together nor are such synchronisms at all rare in Greek History that they are in any way peculiar to one author or even school, Herodotos had made the victories at Plataia and Mykale occur on the same day for instance. The arti hrhkoti ought to be bracketed after ‘the recent fall of Potidaea’, which is a mistranslation. It is also odd to see the Macedonian seizure of the town as a solely ‘Greek’ event. The fact that the Athenians were entering into alliance with the Grabos et al on 26 July makes it something of a push to have Parmenion forestall the three allies and have the victory reported back. Also, the decree is dated to the ‘eleventh day of the first pryttany’, since, at this time the civic and Festival calendar were made to start on the same day it must have been later in the month of Hekatombaion than the sixth, so it would be impossible for these three sychronisms to coincide with the fire at Ephesos on the sixth. The correlating author is simply Plutarch, and as has been shown he is collating rather than correlating nor is Hammond’s mystery source correlating the sources he claims; Olympic records recorded the winner of the stadion, the original event, not the winners of all events, Philip’s victory in the horse race would have been reported in contemporary historians, Theopompos and Anaxamines, both writing Philippic Histories could hardly fail to mention it; we are asked to believe that an expert in chronology could make no comment beyond Hekatombaion being equivalent to Loios, nor does notice of a devastating fire at a major Greek temple have to come from Ephesian records. The claimed expertise is simply bogus.
In 3.6-7 Plutarch enlarged on the fire at Ephesus as follows:
Hegesias the Magnesian [FRGrH 142 F3] uttered a witticism frigid enough to have put the fire out. He said ‘naturally the temple was burnt down because Artemis was occupied with the delivery of Alexander’. All the Magi who happened to be staying in Ephesus, regarding the disaster of the temple as a portent of another disaster, ran about beating their heads and shouting that a great disaster and calamity for Asia had been born that day.

It is to be noted that Plutarch cited Hegesias only for the feeble joke, and neither the synchronisation in 3.5, nor for the behaviour of the Magi; for they were both in a narrative tense and not in the accusative and infinitive. [Jacoby, FGrH II B 807 failed to notice the distinction. Hamilton C 8 saw ‘no good reason to credit’ Hegesias with more than the remark about Artemis, ie 3.6] It so happens that Cicero had mentioned both parts of Plutarch’s statement: for he said that Artemis attended the birth of A and her temple at Ephesus was burnt (N.D. 2.69), and that the night when Olympias gave birth to A was agreed to be the night of the burning of the temple, and as dawn broke next day the Magi had shouted that a plague and calamity for Asia had been born that night (Div. 1.47). It is evident that Cicero and Plutarch had a common source, directly or ultimately. Fortunately Cicero named his source for the first passage as Timaeus (FGrH 566 F 150a). Plutarch, then, drew on Hegesias for the feeble joke, but on Timaeus for the rest, namely 3.5 and 3.7-8.
It is always unpleasant to accuse someone, especially a distinguished and now sadly deceased scholar, of dishonesty but it seems hard to avoid here. How else can one explain the fact that he deliberately ignores the fact that it is that ‘feeble joke’ that Cicero is quoting. The only solution is that one is mistaken about his source (Cicero had read Hegesias for he comments, unfavourably upon his style in ‘Brutus’). The matter of the different styles must be addressed; the accusative and infinitive structure is reserved for a direct quote from Hegesias, the narrative tense for matter from Plutarch’s notes including, since it appears in Cicero (Div I 47) a paraphrase from Hegesias re the Magi.

Why should Timaeus have concerned himself with these matters, when he did not write about A? Two reasons may be advanced. Timaeus was born in the same year, 356 BC (he lived until 260 BC), and he may well have been interested in the birthday of his greatest contemporary. He was particularly famous for his control of precise chronology; and Polybius cited as an example Timaeus’ correlation of Attic data, priestly records, lists of Olympic victors, and records of ephors and kings at Sparta (12.10.4 and 12.11.1)[See GL Barber in OCD2 1074, and Walbank C II 374f. Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)] Similarly in the dating of A’s birth Timaeus correlated, as we have seen, Attic data, Macedonian months and events, priestly records at Ephesus and Olympic victor lists. He probably recorded it as an example of his expertise.
Since Timaeus retailed the prophecy of the magi, he was probably responsible for the prophecy made by the diviners at Philip’s court, that A would be invincible (3.9 aniketon esesthai). Both prophecies were clearly vaticinia post eventum.
It is pure speculation on Hammond’s part that Timaios was born in 356 and he cites no authority, his ‘lived until 260 BC’ rests on the lifespan of 96 given by pseudo-Lucian ‘Macrobioi’ applied to his speculative birth date. For someone ‘famous for his tight control of precise chronology’ we have observed some very sloppy work here, how could he have missed the treaty with Grabos, we are told that Timaios did look through old inscriptions, unless his interest lay not in ‘precise chronology’ of current events, but in the correlation of broader archaic data to whit the very records claimed as his interests, archons, ephors, Kings and victors in the stadion. To further underline the falsity of his claims to precision Hammond cites Timaios as the authority for Alexander’s thirteen year reign, which Aristoboulos tells us was twelve years eight months! Different degrees of precision to the detriment of the precise chronographer.

It is apparent that Hammond was carried away by his discovery of the Timaeus citation in Cicero and tried to force the evidence to suit the theory. The result is inconsistent and self-contradictory.

The notice on Alexander’s Birthday needs to be re-written to reflect the true nature of the sources not Hammond’s wishful thinking.
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

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agesilaos wrote:
Why should Timaeus have concerned himself with these matters, when he did not write about A? Two reasons may be advanced. Timaeus was born in the same year, 356 BC (he lived until 260 BC), and he may well have been interested in the birthday of his greatest contemporary. He was particularly famous for his control of precise chronology; and Polybius cited as an example Timaeus’ correlation of Attic data, priestly records, lists of Olympic victors, and records of ephors and kings at Sparta (12.10.4 and 12.11.1)[See GL Barber in OCD2 1074, and Walbank C II 374f. Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)] Similarly in the dating of A’s birth Timaeus correlated, as we have seen, Attic data, Macedonian months and events, priestly records at Ephesus and Olympic victor lists. He probably recorded it as an example of his expertise.
Since Timaeus retailed the prophecy of the magi, he was probably responsible for the prophecy made by the diviners at Philip’s court, that A would be invincible (3.9 aniketon esesthai). Both prophecies were clearly vaticinia post eventum.
It is pure speculation on Hammond’s part that Timaios was born in 356 and he cites no authority, his ‘lived until 260 BC’ rests on the lifespan of 96 given by pseudo-Lucian ‘Macrobioi’ applied to his speculative birth date. For someone ‘famous for his tight control of precise chronology’ we have observed some very sloppy work here, how could he have missed the treaty with Grabos, we are told that Timaios did look through old inscriptions, unless his interest lay not in ‘precise chronology’ of current events, but in the correlation of broader archaic data to whit the very records claimed as his interests, archons, ephors, Kings and victors in the stadion. To further underline the falsity of his claims to precision Hammond cites Timaios as the authority for Alexander’s thirteen year reign, which Aristoboulos tells us was twelve years eight months! Different degrees of precision to the detriment of the precise chronographer.

It is apparent that Hammond was carried away by his discovery of the Timaeus citation in Cicero and tried to force the evidence to suit the theory. The result is inconsistent and self-contradictory.

The notice on Alexander’s Birthday needs to be re-written to reflect the true nature of the sources not Hammond’s wishful thinking.
Couldn't get to sleep last night - fell asleep at 4 a.m. and woke up again at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep! When that happens I know better than to do anything too brain-taxing, so I amused myself by checking books and internet sources concerning this excerpt from Hammond which you've quoted above, particularly "Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)]" I read the chapter, Polybius and Alexander Historiography by Richard Billows in Alexander the Great in Fact and Fiction. Billows lists all of Polybius' references to Alexander, even the "purely incidental references" so I checked them out. No mention at all of the length of Alexander's reign although I wasn't surprised because if it could be found then Hammond would have given the ref. So next up was Livy, who we're told got the figure of a 13-year reign from Polybius who got it from Timaeus. Found that particular reference, of course, but then I decided to play a little and I searched the entirety of Livy's History of Rome using the word-search "years". It's interesting what came up. Here are all Livy's mentions of the length of a reign:
Romulus reigned thirty-seven years, Numa forty-three; Tullus had achieved great renown in war, and reigned for two-and-thirty years; Ancus reigned twenty-four years; Servius Tullius reigned forty-four years; Lucius Tarquinius Superbus reigned twenty-five years; It was at this time that Attalus, who owing to his illness had been carried from Thebes to Pergamum, died there in his seventy-second year after a reign of forty-four years; His reign lasted eleven years; during the thirteen years of Alexander's reign…
Not a single so-many-years-and-so-many months to be found! Every single reign is rounded up (or down) to the closest number of years. In fact, there isn't a single mention of months in conjunction with years anywhere in the history. There are very few - and I do mean very few - references in regard to age which say "under 18" and "over sixty", etc. Finally, there are a couple of "about-so-many-years"and one single "year-and-a-half"concerning the length of service of one individual. Everything else is in whole years - and there are many, many references. Seems to me that anyone using Timaeus/Polybius/Livy as evidence of the length of A's reign is wasting their time. The reference in Livy is meaningless and certainly cannot be used to refute Aristobulus. Funny that Hammond never noticed this.

Yes, I probably could have (or should have?) put this in your "Length of his Reign" thread, but the quote is here, and the other thread has meandered somewhat because of an initial post I made there. Sorry about that. :oops: Anyway, if you want, you or I can copy it there.

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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

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amyntoros wrote:Couldn't get to sleep last night - fell asleep at 4 a.m. and woke up again at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep! When that happens I know better than to do anything too brain-taxing, so I amused myself by checking books and internet sources concerning this excerpt from Hammond which you've quoted above, particularly "Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)]" I read the chapter, Polybius and Alexander Historiography by Richard Billows in Alexander the Great in Fact and Fiction. Billows lists all of Polybius' references to Alexander, even the "purely incidental references" so I checked them out. No mention at all of the length of Alexander's reign although I wasn't surprised because if it could be found then Hammond would have given the ref. So next up was Livy, who we're told got the figure of a 13-year reign from Polybius who got it from Timaeus. Found that particular reference, of course, but then I decided to play a little and I searched the entirety of Livy's History of Rome using the word-search "years". It's interesting what came up. Here are all Livy's mentions of the length of a reign...
You don't seem to be aware that a lot of Polybius is missing and that Polybius wrote about Timaeus. Furthermore, it is perfectly standard that Livy used Polybius (in his more complete ancient form) as is made clear by the following, which you can find here: http://www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/livy4.html
Jona Lendering wrote:Nevertheless, the question is relevant how Livy treated his sources. Fortunately, we can answer this question, because we can compare Books 21-33 of the History of Rome from its foundation with Livy's source, Books 3-18 of the World History by the Greek writer Polybius of Megalopolis (c.200-c.118). Our historian praises his predecessor as "an author by no means to be despised" and "a reliable authority on all Roman history" (30.45.5 and 33.10.10). He frequently uses Polybius and we can often hear verbal echoes. It seems that Livy simply retold in his own words what he had read in Polybius' World history. It is perhaps unkind to say so, but Livy's work is essentially a compilation of older sources.
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by marcus »

Taphoi wrote:
amyntoros wrote:Couldn't get to sleep last night - fell asleep at 4 a.m. and woke up again at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep! When that happens I know better than to do anything too brain-taxing, so I amused myself by checking books and internet sources concerning this excerpt from Hammond which you've quoted above, particularly "Polybius was evidently relying on Timaeus in giving the reign of A as lasting 13 years, ie July 336 to 10 June 323 (Livy 45.9.5 based on Polybius)]" I read the chapter, Polybius and Alexander Historiography by Richard Billows in Alexander the Great in Fact and Fiction. Billows lists all of Polybius' references to Alexander, even the "purely incidental references" so I checked them out. No mention at all of the length of Alexander's reign although I wasn't surprised because if it could be found then Hammond would have given the ref. So next up was Livy, who we're told got the figure of a 13-year reign from Polybius who got it from Timaeus. Found that particular reference, of course, but then I decided to play a little and I searched the entirety of Livy's History of Rome using the word-search "years". It's interesting what came up. Here are all Livy's mentions of the length of a reign...
You don't seem to be aware that a lot of Polybius is missing and that Polybius wrote about Timaeus. Furthermore, it is perfectly standard that Livy used Polybius (in his more complete ancient form) as is made clear by the following, which you can find here: http://www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/livy4.html
Jona Lendering wrote:Nevertheless, the question is relevant how Livy treated his sources. Fortunately, we can answer this question, because we can compare Books 21-33 of the History of Rome from its foundation with Livy's source, Books 3-18 of the World History by the Greek writer Polybius of Megalopolis (c.200-c.118). Our historian praises his predecessor as "an author by no means to be despised" and "a reliable authority on all Roman history" (30.45.5 and 33.10.10). He frequently uses Polybius and we can often hear verbal echoes. It seems that Livy simply retold in his own words what he had read in Polybius' World history. It is perhaps unkind to say so, but Livy's work is essentially a compilation of older sources.
Best regards,

Andrew
But hang on a moment ... Livy gives a rounded up figure of 13 years, presumably using Polybius, although Polybius' actual text on this is lost, and we might presume that Polybius used Timaeus. Fine, but that means that we have no actual, extant source that shows that Timaeus got Alexander's birthday correct, or that he even noted it. All we have is Hammond fitting his own dates to Livy's 13 year assertion - or fitting Livy's 13 year assertion into the dates that Hammond has already decided are Alexander's birth and death dates. It's all very handy, but it doesn't provide any proof, whatsoever, that Timaeus, or Polybius, actually gave such specific dates. The whole thing is entirely spurious.

I won't speak for Amyntoros (except that I'm just about to), but I am pretty sure you will find that she is very much aware that a lot of Polybius is missing. What Amyntoros seems to understand better than some people is that, if pieces of a work are missing, you cannot use those lost pieces as proof or evidence of anything whatsoever. No-one would be so silly as to suggest that, would they?
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:You don't seem to be aware that a lot of Polybius is missing and that Polybius wrote about Timaeus. Furthermore, it is perfectly standard that Livy used Polybius (in his more complete ancient form) as is made clear by the following, which you can find here: http://www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/livy4.html
Jona Lendering wrote:Nevertheless, the question is relevant how Livy treated his sources. Fortunately, we can answer this question, because we can compare Books 21-33 of the History of Rome from its foundation with Livy's source, Books 3-18 of the World History by the Greek writer Polybius of Megalopolis (c.200-c.118). Our historian praises his predecessor as "an author by no means to be despised" and "a reliable authority on all Roman history" (30.45.5 and 33.10.10). He frequently uses Polybius and we can often hear verbal echoes. It seems that Livy simply retold in his own words what he had read in Polybius' World history. It is perhaps unkind to say so, but Livy's work is essentially a compilation of older sources.
Obviously, I know parts of Polybius are missing. Didn't the "unsurprisingly" give that away?

I've re-read my post and I can't see anything in it which implies I don't believe that Livy had Polybius as a source and that Polybius got his info on A's reign from Timaeus - so thank you for the quotation from Jona but it wasn't necessary as it changes nothing I said. All that really matters is the fact that there is no dating in Livy which includes years and months. None. Obviously every reign and every war and every period of peace and every appointment and ... well, everything could not have measured exactly to the year, therefore it is impossible to use Livy as evidence that Timaeus recorded Alexander's reign as exactly thirteen years.

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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

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You have all missed a salient point in Livy's list, but then so did Hammond; any list containing Attalos I of Pergamon had to be written after 197 when he died if this were Timaios then he must have been born in 293 at the earliest; I suppose this might be an addition of Livy's own or even Polybios', doh! Even so the point still stands that the dates are all 'round' years. which tends to be the way in chronographical lists like George Syncellos for instance; very few rulers get their reigns given to the nearest month and those only last a few months and the only one that is precise as to the number of days is Antipater 'Etesias' who lasted 45 days after the death of Ptolemy Keraunos :D
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Re: Birthday again; a study in method

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marcus wrote:But hang on a moment ... Livy gives a rounded up figure of 13 years, presumably using Polybius, although Polybius' actual text on this is lost, and we might presume that Polybius used Timaeus. Fine, but that means that we have no actual, extant source that shows that Timaeus got Alexander's birthday correct, or that he even noted it. All we have is Hammond fitting his own dates to Livy's 13 year assertion - or fitting Livy's 13 year assertion into the dates that Hammond has already decided are Alexander's birth and death dates. It's all very handy, but it doesn't provide any proof, whatsoever, that Timaeus, or Polybius, actually gave such specific dates. The whole thing is entirely spurious.

I won't speak for Amyntoros (except that I'm just about to), but I am pretty sure you will find that she is very much aware that a lot of Polybius is missing. What Amyntoros seems to understand better than some people is that, if pieces of a work are missing, you cannot use those lost pieces as proof or evidence of anything whatsoever. No-one would be so silly as to suggest that, would they?
What Hammond writes is perfectly normal "quellenforschung" (source research) in the true Germanic tradition. Is it certain? Of course not. As a scientist I am happy to reassure you that nothing at all in this world is certain. Does it have evidential value? In itself only slightly, because the derivation is tenuous in this case. However, it can ultimately be valuable, if it should transpire that many tenuous strands of evidence all lead to the same conclusion. Hammond does get some of the way there with his several arguments about Timaeus, but it is not conclusive. I do find it persuasive that Cicero attributed stories to Timaeus that Plutarch told in the context of giving an exact birthday for Alexander in the Athenian and Macedonian calendars in combination with independent evidence that Cleitarchus used Timaeus etc. However, I actually agree with Agesilaos that to say that Timaeus definitely was the source of the birth date for Alexander is too strong: I would only say that he is the best candidate for being the ultimate source on the available evidence (which, like all evidence, is imperfect).

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Andrew
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