Alexander and Roxanne

[Linda]

Renault says in The Nature of Alexander that "her" Bagoas (the young eunuch given to Alexander by Nazarbenes) is not "son of Pharnuces". I know Green gives him that lineage, but Arrian says that a Bagoas is one of the sponsors of the ships that sailed from India: "Persian trierarch, Bagoas son of Pharnuces". This either suggests there was a third (in our story) Bagoas, or that the young Bagoas was richer and more powerful than commonly thought. Anyone have any thoughts? Would a nobleman have perfomed in a dancing competition?Linda

[X]

Ah. Poor Archilochus....

[ruthaki]

I see in the 'Persian Boy' Renault has the young Bagoas father named as Artembares, son of Araxis of the Paragadai, Kyros' old tribe. This may be fictional. She also mentiones the Vizier Bagoas. The ship list from the Voyage of Nearchus lists (after the Macedonian officers" "and one Persian, Bagoas, son of Pharnuches." Given that the names were used frequently it could be 3 different Bagoases. Marcus: Re the Shah: I had thought of keeping it and making at note in Authors Notes that I used it because it sounded best with the Persian characters. It wouldn't be too difficult to switch back to 'King" but I wanted a different identification from the Macedonian use of King because the Persian King was so highly revered.
It's been tricky with the names in my novel too, as there are often repetitious names, and as I am sticking close to the historical facts I can't change them or leave them out. So I identify by the family name. I think the only one I changed was the Arridaios who made the funeral carriage because the A. who is Alexander's half-brother features more strongly in the story. And here we come to Roxane again, or "Roxana" as I've spelled it, whose real name was Rukhsana or Rushanak "Daughter of Light", also spelled Rhoxane.
I've decided to leave it "Roxana" as somehow it sounded 'right' to me. Gee maybe I should have let her have her 'real' name back??? Ruthaki

[alejandro]

Hi LindaThough the possibility of 3 Bagoases is quite likely, it could also be the case that Bagoas the eunuch was the son of Pharnuces.In particular, the sponsors of the ships were (probably) decided by Alexander based on two factors: honour and wealth. Bagoas the eunuch was certainly honoured by Alexander, regardless of whether the former was of noble origin (even more, Alexander could, if he had wanted, have raised him to a noble position). Regarding wealth, Bagoas could have hoarded a significant amount during the (about) 6 years he accompanied Alex as a court favourite (and even if he hadnGÇÖt been rich enough, if Alexander had been determined to honour Bagoas as trierarch, Alex himself could have contributed to/topped up BagoasGÇÖ sponsorship fund).Regarding noblemen participating in a dancing competition, again it hinges on whether he was of noble origin or not. Also, as I said before, he may have been raised to nobility by Alexander. In any case, let us not forget that he was, in any case, a slave, so his GÇ£nobilityGÇ¥ (if he ever was noble) was GÇ£nominalGÇ¥ rather than GÇ£realGÇ¥. He never got to satrap, or vizier, or to any high administrative position (I think he became Chief Eunuch in charge of the KingGÇÖs harem/household, though it may be a RenaultGÇÖs literary invention). And the mention of the patronymic I donGÇÖt think is an irrefutable proof of noble origin (I donGÇÖt have the text: is there any trierarch whose patronymic is NOT mentioned?): giving the patronymic of noble people is a Macedonian costum (I think), since the Greeks that accompanied ATG were usually identified by their cities (as Callisthenes of Olynthos or Eumenes of Kardia); I donGÇÖt know what was the Persian custom regarding this issue.Not that I am saying that it is the case that Bagoas the eunuch is the very same that the Bagoas son of Pharnuces who led a ship down the Hydaspes-Indus (?). I simply say that both in terms of honour and wealth, the eunuch was (probably) suitable for a trierarchy.As always when names are repeated, the identification depends on the relative probabilities assigned to each alternative. In this case, the probability that Bagoas the eunuch is the son of Pharnuces on the one hand, and the probability that they are different people on the other. I am unable to properly evaluate these probabilities, but I believe that the first one is certainly not zero.Kind regardsAlejandro

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,Of course, you could always have Persian characters give Roxane her Persian name... and Greek characters call her "Roxana".I've seen a similar thing done in other books... but it can be a bit confusing... :-)All the bestMarcus

[Linda]

AlejandroThank you for that; I guess it is one of these things which will remain uncertain. If Bagoas son of Pharnuces is the Bagoas who was Alexander's favourite, he definitely he had a slightly different role to the self-effacing servant in Renault's book. However, as you say, it is not out of the question that a favourite may have gained a lot of wealth by being so close to the King, no matter his origin.Linda

[ruthaki]

MARCUS, I had a message from someone on another
ancient history site. They said the Persian word for King was xshayathiya or xshaythiyanam which translates as "Shahanshah" in modern Persian. As I've been using "Shahanshah" or simply "Shah", I guess I can get away with it.Yes, as for Roxana's other name, I'm having enough coping with Adeia-Eurydike (Adeia was her real name before she married Arridaios and took the royal name Eurydike.) As Roxana often thinks of herself as "Little Star" or "Daughter of light" she could also think of herself by her real name. It pretty hard to be totally authentic. For instance, some of the real Persian names are quite unprounounceable so I use the common Greek versions of their names.

[jan]

continuing on this thread, I read that Parmenion was given the house that had formerly belonged to Bagoas. It appears that Bagoas was quite well-heeled as Linda has suggested.

[ruthaki]

That must have been the house of the former Vizier Bagoas. ruthaki

[jan]

Hi Ruth, That is good. There are so many eunuchs whose names are Bagoas that it does become a bit disconcerting. I had read Persian Boy before I read Curtius's book, and I could not but compare Mary Renault to David Gemmel who has made a hero of Parmenion in his book. Because of Gemmel I then read and learned more on Xenophon. To my way of thinking, both Renault and Gemmel have deliberating created contrasting fictional characters to the authentic real characters. So it is interesting to note author's license. I enjoy that though, as it gives me a glimpse into that author's mind. I really have liked the preview I read of your book on your own website. You sound like the good mother, and another thing that caught my interest in your book is the vandalism to the trunks of the elephants. So I am patiently waiting for it to be published.Hope all is going well with you. I heard Geraldo Rivera mention ATG last night on his show. I thought that was timely.

[ruthaki]

Hi Jan, The elephants became characters in my novel because they, too, are the victims of what happens at the end of the dynasty. I am so close to the end of the novel but keep getting disrupted from one thing or another (currently because I have to get some travel stories out there). Also tying in some complicated political shenanigans right now and have to do it right to build to the climax. It has been a difficult task writing this but a wonderful adventure. About the house of Bagoas, I believe that Parmenio was killed by the time the young Bagoas came into favour with Alexander, that's why I figured it must have been the house of the wicked Vizier. ruthaki (and thanks for reading my website)

[Rubén Alejandro]

I believe , we should consider the emotional side of Alexander as that of a
big man , not just some emotional guy who would marry a woman and not
other for being inlove with the first one, and on part of that emotional side of his ,
he indeed was inlove with Roxana , he was the owner of his heart !
he would choose with whom to fall inlove .

[Rubén Alejandro]

LOLOL...John, you're killin' me!Later Nicator

mmmm .... to me that a real Heaven born captain can even
draw back from a battlefield for some time regarding Heavens
and staying with God , giving to think even that he has "lost "
the turn ... to in time atain a total victory on the matter .
oh crazy by the way, in the meantime he seems as lost , many
more enemies gather ! to be against him , so in the end he wins
even more ,

kind regards ,
Alejandro .