Overated and Lucky

[jasonxx]

Hello Members.

Following my intro to this site and reading the many threads about Alexander.Mostly with references to ancient somewhat sketchy sources.

It has to be accepted that Alexander was a product of circumstance and militaristically was never tested.He defeated an Empire on the verge of colapse whos military might was basically levied and conscripted. He fought no armies or enemies of any real calibre. The Macedonian Army was one and the first real profesional army against nothing.

Its time you ancient sandal Scolars looked at proper generals.

George Armstrong Custer.Lord Chelmsford and Cornwallis now those are great commanders.

Regads

[jan]

George Armstrong Custer! Cornwallis! You trying to be a comedian?

[dean]

Hello,

It has to be accepted that Alexander was a product of circumstance and militaristically was never tested.He defeated an Empire on the verge of colapse whos military might was basically levied and conscripted. He fought no armies or enemies of any real calibre. The Macedonian Army was one and the first real profesional army against nothing.

Its time you ancient sandal Scolars looked at proper generals.

Mmmm..

In four lines I don't think it is possible to level Alexander's accomplishment, even a major thesis would fall along the way.

It is very simple to say that just because he came out victorious from every single battle that he fought- that he was facing an enemy which was on the verge of losing it anyway, yet he didn't face just the Persians,he faced soldiers on Greek soil, in Asia Minor, in Syria- middle east and beyond the Hindu Kush. Come on, give at least a "bit" of credit!!!!!

Best regards,
Dean

[rjones2818]

We know that there are enough people who want to tear down Alexander. We shouldn't be amazed when one writes about it on the board. My guess is that he's just trolling.



Rex

[marcus]

Mostly with references to ancient somewhat sketchy sources.

Hmm. Well, you ain't going to get much better than "ancient" sources, considering when Alexander lived. As for their being sketchy ... they aren't that sketchy.

If you were aiming on getting a rise out of people ... I guess you succeeded.

ATB

[Paralus]

My guess is that he's just trolling.

Rex

Bingo.

Trolls: Don't feed them after midnight; don't feed them before midnight.

Most of all......never pay 'em any mind.

[jasonxx]

Im not into bashing you guys chosen subject. However I will go further than fighting a shot empire.

I reiterate his luck very early in his career. If the Persian Nobles hadnt been so pigheaded and listened to Memnon they would have grinded and left the Macedonians where they were. If the Persians fortified. The Persian even the Sicillian Gates he would have been stopped.

The Persian Command was totally inept and useless. A better minded ruler would have put Alexander straight back on a boat to Greece.

If George Custer were in command the Persians would have taken the Macedonians head off.The little Greek boy who had his father knocked off so he could play with his fathers toys in Asia.

Regards

[Paralus]

The Persian even the Sicillian Gates he would have been stopped.

Ok, I know I said don't feed 'em, I know. That doesn't mean that when the ref points to the spot and says "free kick" and there's just a goal keeper in front of you.......


It's rather a long swim from Cilicia to Sicily. It's even further home -- ask the Athenians -- when you're done over.

[Efstathios]

The Persian Command was totally inept and useless. A better minded ruler would have put Alexander straight back on a boat to Greece. Sad

As the Greeks put Xerxes and Darius on a boat back to Persia 150 years ago?

The command was useless back then too?

Well, i always like like these kind of conversations where someone is trying to diminish that which cannot be diminished.

You need to study the sources and the history of Alexander a little bit better.Darius had a big army and he was a skilled warrior himself.As was Xerxes.Xerxes also fled, but did it in a more disguised way.He just took the ship back to Persia along with the biggest part of his army.

When was the Persian Empire at it's peak?At Cyrus' time? Well we dont know what he would do in a circumstance like this.But The Empire was also at peak during Xerxes' time,and Darius' III time.The Empire still had most of it's territories when Alexander invaded.

But as mentioned, there were the Scythians too, and the Indians,Bactrians e.t.c.

As i said, study a little bit more history.

[dean]

Hello,

Yes it is a good question, when was the Persian empire at its peak?

Economically Darius III was great king of a nation unlike any other- he would have put King Midas to shame. Financially the Persian empire had possibly never been better. The treasure captured in Susa, and subsequently Persepolis was the equivalent of about 50 fort knox's. Persia had possibly never been in better shape.

Are there signs of decay in the Persian empire under the aegis of Darius III? Militarily we can conclude that Darius III was no Cyrus the great yet as we have discussed on previous threads, neither was he completely unversed in the art of war- or strategy as we see in Issus. Looking at the "odds" at Gaugamela one really must question how the hell Alexander pulled it off.

Alexander has been described as the last great Homeric hero- and I like that.
For good reason the greatest military geniuses in history have emulated or read and reread Alexander's story. Not only Alexander's military genius and flare are worthy of the highest merit but his planning and logistics are par excellence omitting of course the Gedrosian episode.

Best regards,
Dean

[jasonxx]

Gaugamella was a example of Darius uselessness and the total disaray the Persians were in. I make the point where the Persian Cavalry actually broke through and decided to go raid Alexanders Baggage train. Any useful commander would have about turned and hit the Macedonians from the back. Suck a strategy would have encircled the Small Macedonian force. Alexander off for a little romp huntung Darius to return and find his army enveloped.

Any Persian with have a brain would have fortified and blockaded the Hellespont to stop the Midget Macedonian even reaching Persain soil. Argue as much as you like Alexander is the luckiest general ever.

If Spitamenese had the resources money etc of Darius he would have run rings round Alexander. Lets be honest he actually did for as long as he did.

Had Alexander the lucky met on field one of the Roman Greats I would have no doubt he would have been dragged through the streets of Rome behand a charriot and later garroted as did Vercengetorix. Alexander would have been a better singer or Lyre player.

[marcus]

Argue as much as you like Alexander is the luckiest general ever.

I'm not going to argue with the general points you're making - others seem to be doing that already.

However, I would just raise the one question: what's wrong with being lucky? I doubt there has been a single commander in history who has not relied on at least some luck - Wellington was extremely lucky at Waterloo, for starters. And it was Napoleon himself who argued that luck was one of the most important attributes of a general.

Yes, perhaps the Persians should have fortified the Hellespont ... but as they didn't we have no way of knowing - or even of speculating - whether that would have stopped Alexander.

Every battle depends on things going right for one side and wrong for the other. However good one's strategy or tactics are, the one thing you cannot take for granted is what the other general will do. Therefore, to suggest that Alexander's brilliance is in some way diminished by his being "lucky" is rather disingenuous, in my view.

ATB

[Efstathios]

If Spitamenese had the resources money etc

If if if....

And if the ships of the allies had fallen into bad weather while going to Normady then maybe today we would be all under the rule of Hitler's Germany.

But things happen for a reason.Some things are not luck.Period.

And what is this thing about midget? Alexander was not tall but not short either.Macedonians were generally tall so Alexander was short for a Macedonian, but compairing to other Greeks he was of medium height.Napoleon was short.But yet again height is of no importance.Alexander could fight multiple opponents.Remember the incident at Maloi at India, where he jumped through the village wall and was alone around many opponents.Alledgedly he had killed many of them before the arrow got to him,and his friends arrived.

[jasonxx]

all Fair points but Alexanders was all luck. Pretty phsychotic to get drunk and run a guy through who once saved his life. And there can be no doubt he was behind Philip getting killed.

If Philip had not died then where would Alexanders glory belong nowhere. Philip would have taken the thunder

[Efstathios]

Again you are presuming."If" does not has a place in history.