Alexandrias so Called Drinking.Cassander Propoganda

[kenny]

Companions HailI write to bring up the so called over indulgence with Alexanders drinking. As part of Stones narration he pointed out that this part of the story was basically put around by Cassander after Alexander died.When I read the sources I found no indication that Alexander was more of an excesive drinker than the norm, Infact I lean towards the idea he was basically more of a social drinker. Drinking to be in keeping with the boys and relatively moderate.Apart from the Clietus affair we hear of no more drunken affairs and not even a real mention he himself was drunk. Correct me if wrong.So if indeed it was Cassander propoganda then we can assume no weakened alcoloic state of his body to make him vulverableto the mystery ilnerss.Kenny

[dean]

Hello,Drinking was pretty much the order of the day- back then- weren't there drinking contestes to see who could drink the most? Philip certainly was a hard drinker, as we can see on the night of his wedding when he challenges Alexander. Also the sources do mention that in later life Alexander was more given to drinking- Curtius says his virtues were "marred by his inexcusable fondness for drink" (5.7.1.) and even Arrian mentions, "Alexander had already taken to new and more barbaric ways in drinking,". Justin says, Alexander, like his father, was "too fond of drink." These are quoted in J.M.OBrien's book "The invisible enemy".Although I have to admit that I don't personally think that he died due to this problem.Best regards,
Dean.

[elentari]

Well,I must admit,he had real problems with wine.He,he,besides war,Achiles,believing his divine ascendence,women,and ....well...Hephaisteion,he had a real crush on wine.Greek wine.and I'm not joking.

[azara]

Well, Cassander may have played a part, and the Aristotelic philosophers did their best to discredit the king after his death, and probably Cleitarchos gathered accounts of epic drinking parties, that took place late at night in the royal pavilion, made by people who were not thereGǪAll that said, however, one must admit that Alexander drank, and occasionally drank too much, at least for our standards, if not for those of the Macedon court.
However, I have a question: how is it that in the sources the king, allegedly drunken, never collapses on his bed or is carried away unconscious, but GÇ£does what he usually did after drinkingGÇ¥, that is his customary routine of bathing and going to bed? Routine and excess donGÇÖt seem to go together very well. Cleitus, drunken, recites verses to challenge Alexander, who recognizes the strophe knowing it by heart: no matter if the episode is invented, anyway Plutarch thought such a scene could have happened. So I would like to know what degree of drunkenness the sources mean when they use the word GÇ£drunkennessGÇ¥ (paroin+¼a) and what the social attitude, in AlexanderGÇÖs time, was towards it.
Another question: the wine served, for example, in Bactra came from...where? And after all the cold and hot weather and the jolting for miles and miles that I imagine, could it still be drunk unmixed (if drunk at all)? Now I stop. With my best regards Azara

[beausefaless]

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[amyntoros]

Hi Azara,There was local and regional production of wine to be had, as well as whatever the Macedonians may (or may not) have taken along with them on campaign. For example, Strabo (11.8. says the Tapyri occupy the country between Hyrcani and Arii (someone with a better knowledge of geography will have to tell exactly where that is) while Baeton in Athenaeus (442 a GÇô b) says GÇ£the nation of the Tapyri are so addicted to wine that even in anointing themselves they use nothing else but wine.GÇ¥ Obviously it was to be found locally. :-)What the wine was made of is questionable. If the histories say that the vine grew in any particular region then we can assume that at least some of their wine was made from grapes. Polyaenus (4.3.32), listing a bill of fare for the Persian kings that was carved on a column of brass shows that GÇ£if he (the king) supped at Babylon or Susa, one half was palm wine, and the other half expressed from grapes.GÇ¥As Andrew says, wine can be made from anything although IGÇÖm sure the Macedonians preferred it from grapes whenever possible. (IGÇÖll never forget my fatherGÇÖs first venture into homemade wine after someone bought him a kit for Christmas GÇô he used potatoes and it couldGÇÖve knocked out an elephant!) :-)Best regards,Amyntoros

[boris]

That would be Cleitus which I think Kenny mentioned in his post. To be fair to Alexander however, Cleitus himself was drunk also and was going too far in provoking him. That doenst justify the action however and Alexander new it, hence his heavy grief for what he did.The other case of Alexander doing a bad thing under the influence of alcohol has to be the burning of Persepolis however. He probably wouldnt have given it the go ahead had he been sober.

[chris]

I seem to recall reading that Alexander lost many days to hangovers, sometimes three or four at a time - some hangover. Let's face it, he was a young virile king, in a hard drinking culture, and he would have had to have been the best......

[beausefaless]

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[Efstathios]

Philip's drinking problem was well known.And it is described in the sources too.So we cannot say that the King's court tried to hide his problem from the people,because he was the King.The same thing applies to Alexander too.If Alexander had a drinking problem it would probably be well known to everyone and accounted at the sources. What is accounted at the sources is that Alexander towards the end of his campaign started to lose control of his drinking and sometimes got drunk but that didnt happen often.At least Plutarch ensures us that Alexander used to drink wine only for the sake of company and always at minimum quantities.He also accounts some incidents were ALexander was drunk (like Cleitus case) but these must have been sparse.

[agesilaos]

Were Alexander's drinking a line of Kassandros' propaganda it is curious that the main apologist for it; who says he only drank in moderation for company's sake; is Aristoboulos of Kassandreia! The myth of of Peripatetic malice and Kassander is just that. Idolators, like Tarn need to explain away the less attractive side of Alexander's actions, he was a functioning alcholic as were most of his men. Drunks can remember all sorts of quotes, I used to sing the whole of Pnk Floyd's 'The Wall' when tanked at my rugby club and perform the 'Final Cut' as an encore, before proceeding to discuss the finer points of Shakespearean Tragedy with people more drunk than myself who still had a fund of quotes that put me to shame. Where the water is bad alchohol has ever been the first stand by, the Greeks mixed theirs the Macedonians seemingly did not (though this could be propaganda from Nicobule). Alexander resembled a club 18-30 holiday maker rather more than he did St Francis of Assissi, but that does not detract from his achievement.

[elpinice]

Just thinking... Would Alexander have had to have been very drunk to kill Cleitus? Cleitus was anti-fusion, and it's possible that he and Alexander had other disagreements that caused Alexander to be frustrated with him, like Philotas. He doesn't seem to have coped with being insulted or diminished even when he was sober. I wonder if the sources (especially Ptolemy and Aristobulus) recorded Alexander as being more drunk than he actually was in order to portray him in a better light.This is mere speculation, and I doubt you could find any evidence for it, but it's an interesting idea.Elpi

[marcus]

Hi all,I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of saying that Philip and Alexander had drinking "problems", or that they were "alcoholics". I bet they didn't see their drinking as a problem, and I suspect their companions didn't, either - as Chris said, in a hard drinking culture, the king had to be the best drinker (remember the exchange between Aeschines and Demosthenes about Philip).Alcoholism is a medical condition predicated on dependence, as far as I understand it (being no medical chap); I don't see there being any evidence that either Philip or Alexander had any form of dependence on alcohol.All the bestMarcus

[agesilaos]

Due to the state of the water most of the ancient world would be classed as alcholic nowadays or at least binge drinkers, 21 units a week ! Three pints a binge. But you are right such terms are irrelevant on the whole I merely added it as provocation, naughty but I had been bingeing!

[kenny]

Hail MarcusI gotta agree with the comments you made about Alexander and Philip been Alexander.In reflection if so we gotta say that all the Macedonians were Alcoholics.Along with other famous peoples Vikings.The Kossaks and many other war like communities. who were hard riders and harder drinkers. We cant label anyone who drinks large as Alcoholic.I can speak from personal experience as a sofer Alcolholic of 9 years.I know what it is and means to be alcoholic. I would admit that there were bigger drinkers around than me yet were not Alcoholic.The definition of Alcoholic for me is where Alcohol controls your life not the other way round very much an addiction like Drugs even worse as it is legal.All I thought about was a drink and the need for a drink.I admit when drunk I worked well and efficiently.But without the drink I fell into a shadow of fear and unworthyness.Alcohol for Alcoholic is basically a mental prop to make us feel normal and even with the rest of the people. Indeed it made me arrogant and avoided by most people even my mother. Alexander and Philip didnt need Alcohol nor did it control there lives they drank in high quantities as a standard of socializing.I hope my experience can clarify Alcoholism. Even though sober now each day is a personAL war.through days of stress and anxiety. I have this little demon on my shoulder telling me to have a few drinks and feell relaxed. However I have a family and children that I dont want to see there father the way he was.RegardsKenny