Philp,Attalus and Alexander

[kenny]

Companions I briefly raised a point in a prior post but I think a scenario needs some debate.Basically I ask you with the incident of Philips wedding was the situation A demonstration of Political desision. That Philip would apease Attalus and chastise Alexander and even draw a sword on his own son.As in the movie Philip says to be a king is to make desisions to hurt the ones he loves.Or on the other hand was Alexander really by this time out of favour and no longerloved by his father that once again he stood by Attalus and drew his sword ready to lunge at Alexander.Upon reflection and I am not a king with political obligations nothing on earth would turn me against my son like that for nothing. The only thing in life to turn me away from my son would be if he were to become some kind of deranges paedophile or rapist.Fianally if the situation had got that bad that indeed Philip no longer lovedhis son and would indeed kill him. Then I dont think it out of the question Alexander been implicated ion Philips death and
under the situation who could under those circumstances blame him. Not I call killing your father what ever you like. But if he intends to kill you then you must kill him first.Kenny

[jan]

Kenny, I appreciate your question as there is no doubt that Philip as enraged enough to have killed Alexander (according to historians) but fell upon his own sword instead, meaning that he fell flat on his face. But his anger and outrage was such that he was a threat to Alexander, yet I do not believe that he would ever have killed him...my objection to this scene in the movie is that Colin did not have enough contemptuousness and scorn for his father's behaviour, but instead was too anguished and despairing. I felt that a very poor interpretation of this scene.What did you think of the death scene of Hephaestion? Did you like his being alive instead of dead as history records? What did you think of the white masks that both Hepheastion and Alexander appear to be wearing? Makeup must have had fun with that.

[kenny]

Janet HailI really couldnt over support what you said.The Make up was diabolical it made them both look very pantomamime and stupid.Also Farrel never looked in command with any of it., Richard Burton ridiculed Philip and raelly had power in his authority.I really have no problem with anything at all in the Film with Hepheastion and have no problem with what SDtone was trying to show. But as I said none of this had anything to to with what made him so great and really wasted tyoo much time. I liked the talkiong of Alexander laying his plans out for further conquests.I did admire the closeness and the love between them both. But in my opinion only it didnt belong and Stone went on about it too much.Kenny

[jan]

Hi Kenny,Well, I always knew it would just be Oliver Stone's fantasy put to screen, but I still cannot figure out the reason that it looks as though Kleitos gives Hephaestion a punch in the face in one of the scenes, as nothing more came of it. I thought his treatment of the trial of Philotas and his execution poorly executed and meaningless. According to the special features section in the film Colin wanted the part so badly that he took a pay cut, and really worked out overtime to prepare for the role. He has to be given some credit, but I also read on Oliver Stone's interview that Oliver maybe had some regrets for making him cry so often and so much...Colin tried but needed a better coach than what he had. I still believe he at least gives a dimension of "real people" quality to the character of Alexander, but fails to lift Alexander to a heroic status. Oliver Stone's description of Colin betrays the fact that Oliver does not understand Alexander at all, as he claims that Colin has the right mixture of masculine/female qualities for the role. Alexander despised feminine qualities in men. Didn't Stone ever learn that?

[kenny]

Janet HailSpot on sister. I couldnt work out the Clietus hitting Hepheastion either. It was a flash with no reasoning.Right on with Colin as Well. I wont blame him for what he had to go with. I like Colin in life also hes genuine with real personality I also understand the fire he has. But he just doesnt have the power or charisma. Well in reality no one has.I know I keep mentioning Elvis Presley. But Actors and people who impersonate him look rediculous. I feel some people cant be copied. I will always compare Elvis's Charisma and power to Alexander except for his strength as a human been. People can knoack Elvis as much as Alexander but the recpords and impresion speak for itself.No other person in history can be identified by the phrase the King. And he charmed the whole world and Alexander would have taken the world.I never thought I would agree as much with you about the fiml but the more I see it tyhe more I see it as a muddled bad attempt. I did love some scenes however. But as you said about the crying, Alexander thoroughly understood war and what it consisted off and Im sure were he the crying sentimental type hed have gone no further than his back yard.I loved Farrel in American outlaws. and Like him imensely. In someways a littlr like Richard Burton. Withg the womanising big drinking dont give a damn about hierarchy. I feel its these points why The hollywood big boys nominated Burton for so many Oscars but never gave him one. Basically he wasnt one of there boys.Love Kenny

[Nax]

Uh- ya mean like "real men" don't cry?tell me Kenny & Jan, have you two EVER been in a real battle, at war? Been standing by a friend who gets his head blown off? Watched as some kid from backwater USA dies with his life bleeding out of blasted off legs? You'll see a LOT of REAL men cry, for anger, pain, shock at losing a buddyEver seen a man in the hospital looking at his newborn baby? yep, you;'ll see tears of awe & joyEver seen a real man watch as his world falls down around his feet, after a natural disaster, when he fnds his wife or kid killed? Ever seen a man when he finally triumphs over adversity & KNOWS he's "conquered" his world, whether its a mountaintop or wheelchair?Real men cry. The fake "manly" virtue of not crying wasn't part of ATG's world. REAL emotions were part of what he was; it was a violent, emotional world where guys hadn't been twisted into thinking that crying was somehow unmanly. Hey man, if ya weren't meant to cry, ya wouldn't have tear ducts and you'd be a robot. Alexander was no robot.

[kenny]

NaxI for one dont think it unmanly to cry. Sop im not in the men dont cry brigade. I would say real men do cry and show emotgion.My point with Alexander crying. By the time of Gaugamela. Alexander was shall we say a seasoned veteran and accomplished killer.A veteran of Greek Campaigns/Illireian revolts and the Asian battles and sieges I am sure by the time of gaugamella Alexander was acustomed to death. If not I would say he would baybe have stopped it sonner.RegardsKenny

[elentari]

well,let's make one thing clear:Alexander never hated his father,neither his father hated him!

[marcus]

Erm ... that's possibly true, but as (a) we don't *really* have any way of knowing the truth of the matter, (b) would you care to share the basis for your assertion?All the bestMarcus

[pamm]

Here is my take on Colins portrayal of Alexander during the wedding scene. I think at first he appears shocked that Philip was taking the side of Attalus and then, when Philip is telling him to come to him and apologize - I believe this is the part where some think Colin looks weak - to me it appears that he is having a battle in his mind over what to do. This is a big decision - does he appear weak and go over to his father; or, does he keep his strength and walk out - knowing that by disobeying his father, the King, the retribution would be extreme. So to me, I see in his face, this debate going on within him. Interesting though, when I listened to Stones comments, he is saying that he had Colin portray this with the emotion of a broken heart. Funny, I didn't get that at all.

[boris]

I think the part with Cleitus hitting Hephaistion is just to add emphasis on the Macedonians being a 'rough' people. In contrast to the greeks or perhaps also in contrast to the Persians they've conquered. Other touches that go with this is that they like heavy drinking and like violence, such as their relishing and taking bets on wrestling matches. Which you briefly see in a couple of scenes.

[kenny]

I dont think there hatred at all.But the nessesity for glory and fame would really for each be better that the other maybe not around.Kenny