where can one hear Macedonian spoken?

[smittysmitty]

I beg to differ!but never mind.
good luck with your exam

[amyntoros]

Well... it appears I was a little over-anxious about the exam and sent my brain into overload, so I would probably have done much better if one of the ancient sources I wrote about had actually been on the list of choices! It's a good job I'm taking this course for love of Alexander and admiration of the professor, and not for college credits. Of course, the prof will now think I'm a right banana when he grades my test.

[marcus]

Hi Smitty,I obviously touched a nerve, especially as I had a bit of a go at Pela GÇô which is fair enough.OK, let's put it another way, which I hope will satisfy you better. Scholars are still not in complete agreement about whether Macedonian was a separate language from Greek, or whether it was a Greek dialect. Ref all the various arguments put forward by Hammond and Borza, and others such as Hamilton, Bosworth, Wilcken, Green, Worthington, O'Brien, Tarn, Lane Fox, Badian, etc. etc. etc.It appears, from small amounts of epigraphic evidence, that there were at least some tendencies towards Doric Greek (see Borza, "The Shadow of Olympus", page 93). Borza himself says that it is impossible to say whether it was or was not Greek - but equally impossible to say whether it was or was not anything else. However, others (for instance Hammond, notably) seem very sure that the Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect GÇô see the argument between Hammond and Bosworth in AHB over AlexanderGÇÖs order in GÇ£MacedonianGÇ¥ during the Cleitus affair (one of the articles was called GÇ£The tumult and the shoutingGÇ¥, but I canGÇÖt remember whose was whose).I was perhaps wrong to say dogmatically that they most certainly did not speak the same language as that spoken in modern FYROM, but Amyntoros is right - sorry to rain on anyone's parade, but what Pela wrote was absolutely nothing to do with the question, as far as I can tell GÇô it certainly wasnGÇÖt about the language that the ancient Macedonians spoke, unless IGÇÖm going bonkers. But perhaps I allowed myself to write with too much emotion boiling inside me.However, I do refute that the analogy with the Yorkshire accent was in anything like the same league. I have many relatives in Yorkshire, I'm a Derbyshire man myself (originally), so I feel perfectly at liberty to make the comment.Still, if you prefer it, IGÇÖll re-cast my comment so as to make a comparison between the 'English' that was spoken in Kent, and that spoken in Warwickshire, in the 15th century. I shall add that this is my humble opinion, based on my evaluation of the arguments of all those scholars mentioned above, plus others whom I have not mentioned, and, ultimately, having to decide which side of the fence I find most convincing.All the bestMarcus

[smittysmitty]

Hi Marcus,This was a little difficult to write, as I didn't want it to offend - I do consider you to be a friend as well as a very well read, intelligent person who makes valuable contributions to this site. In the event the following sounds harsh- well it's not meant to - rather simply attempting to make you aware of certain issues.
The analogy of accents, whether they are from Kent, York or for that matter New York are of no consequence. The underlying point to your post is that the Makedones spoke 'Greek'. As all the above speak English. I find this comment difficult to separate from points of view's which are considered undesirable by others on this site. I would like to think the site of Pothos does not wish to endorse one side or the other.
Given that 'language' is one of the core ingredients in the ethnicity debate - as you kindly have made us aware, of epigraphic material that eludes to the Makedones 'Greekness', it would seem rather obvious that any discussion on such matters is bound to incite and encourage an undesirable element to the forum.
As you have responded that a multitude of scholars are still not in agreement about whether Macedonian was a separate language from Greek, or whether it was a Greek dialect, which I think most well read people will agree with. *You* have decided, ultimately which side of the fence *you* find most convincing. Why there needs to be a fence, I'm not sure.That is fine. But because you are convinced, shouldn't infer that everyone is convinced. You are entitled to your views, as I guess all are?Presumably most frequenters of this site would be in support of your statement as has been noted by at least one other re Hammond etc., however knowledge, in my opinion, should not be based on general consensus. Knowledge needs to be scientific and needs to be fact.Where it is,'t then it should be noted that it is general consensus.Archaeology is far from determining what language the Makedones spoke, let alone their ethnicity. Some scholars, IMO. who's views are a little more credibile than Hammond, have concluded the only way to understand the language and ethnicity of the Makedones is to look at the literary sources. 'It is clear from the extant Alexander historians that the lost sources, made a clear distinction between Greeks and Macedonians - ethnically, culturally, and linguistically - and this must be an accurate reflection of contemporary attitude.'
Waldemar Heckle an

[smittysmitty]

GÇÿIt is clear from the extant Alexander historians that the lost sources, made a clear distinction between Greeks and Macedonians GÇô ethnically, culturally, and linguistically GÇô and this must be an accurate reflection of contemporary attitude.GÇÖ
Waldemar Heckle and J.C Yardley; Alexander the Great. 2004. Ultimately, itGÇÖs not Heckel, Hammond, Borza, Bosworth etc. etc. that is of importance to this thread. These scholars, admirable as their work is, can only reflect their own opinion-and when it comes to opinions, I like to make up my own! The greatest downfall of all academics in my opinion, is,if they donGÇÖt have an answer, they are never short of coming up with one, rather than simply stating GÇÿat this stage, we simply do not knowGÇÖ.I guess this post has gone on long enough.Cheers!

[canto]

Thanks Lyla,I love a little humor in the morning or anytime. I'm sitting here with a big smile on my face. Well, dool was not what I expected. I can imagine pulling in the readers for the erotic moment and then throwing out that word ) Though it would be great for a fic on the funny side.Wow, speaking of funny, laughter, and that kind of stuff. I didn't mean to start anything by my questions concerning what Alexander spoke. I know now not to mention the word .... you know ...the word. That ethnicity debate is right out of the fire. I wish people could relax more.Thank you so much for putting this thread back on track.And thanks for the info.lightofdawn

[marcus]

Hi Smitty,Long message, so I'm restricting myself to an acknowledgement that I've seen it at the moment, as I don't have time to do it justice at the moment.We probably don't need to continue going backwards and forwards, but I do feel that your post deserves a response ... if you'll just give me a bit of time! :-)ATBMarcus

[tino]

Well, it looks like the cat is out of the bag spoiling for another fight. So be it."The underlying point to your post is that the Makedones spoke 'Greek'. As all the above speak English. I find this comment difficult to separate from points of view's which are considered undesirable by others on this site. I would like to think the site of Pothos does not wish to endorse one side or the other."Some of us, like myself, would like to think that a site such as Pothos with learned and accomplished scholars would be just the site to substitute sound logic and deduction as opposed to sheer speculation."it would seem rather obvious that any discussion on such matters is bound to incite and encourage an undesirable element to the forum."That is rich as it seems like you are the one who continously feels the need to challenge the opinions of those who do not share your "Macedonian" language. "You are entitled to your views, as I guess all are?"Absolutely. I believe that the Macedonians spoke a form of proto Swahili. Why not? "Knowledge needs to be scientific and needs to be fact."Please absolutely prove that Shakespeare conversed with his fellow citizens in English and not in his mother tongue, French. "then it should be noted that it
Archaeology is far from determining what language the Makedones spoke, let alone their ethnicity."How odd. With the numerous inscriptions, steles, tablets that have been unearthed from Macedonia and the Middle East I was under the assumption that it was pretty cut and dried?
'It is clear from the extant Alexander historians that the lost sources, made a clear distinction between Greeks and Macedonians - ethnically, culturally, and linguistically - and this must be an accurate reflection of contemporary attitude.' Waldemar Heckle"
Again, that is as clear as the Austrians being clearly distinct from Germany. After all, they are Austrian, not German and speak Austrian, not German. If my replies seem a little hostile, I do apologize but for some of us (Greeks) the issue has gone on long enough to cease being academic speculation to downright insulting.

[Link]

greeks insult themselves:GREEK HELSINKI MONITOR (GHM)
MINORITY RIGHTS GROUP GÇô GREECE (MRG-G)
Address: P.O. Box 60820, GR-15304 Glyka Nera
Telephone: (+30) 210.347.22.59. Fax: (+30) 210.601.87.60.
Web: http://www.GreekHelsinki.gr Presentation to the UN Human Rights Committee
on GreeceGÇÖs Compliance with the International Covenant
on Civil and Political Rights22 March 2005Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) and Minority Rights Group - Greece (MRG-G) have submitted to the UN Human Rights Committee (HRC), in February 2005, a GÇ£Parallel Summary Report on GreeceGÇÖs Compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)GÇ¥ along the lines of the HRCGÇÖs List of Issues on Greece.[1] Below is a highlight of the main points of the GÇ£Parallel ReportGÇ¥ with some underlined updates. In addition, GHM & MRG-G draw the attention of the HRC to discrimination against homosexuals. 1. Generally good legal system suffers in the implementation and the lack of sanctions2. Direct and indirect gender discrimination3. Domestic violence and marital rape still not covered by explicit criminal legislation4. Ill-treatment, misuse of firearms, and related impunity5. Trafficking in human beings6. Detention conditions in prisons and police detention areas7. Inadequate legal aid to minority persons8. Severe restrictions to religious freedom9. Conscientious objectors10. Problems of freedom of expression11. Incitement to national, racial or religious hatred 12. Freedom of association13. Discrimination between ethnic and non-ethnic Greek applicants for citizenship14. Recognition of minorities15. The use of sharia among GÇÿMuslimGÇÖ minority women16. Racist prejudice against migrants and Roma 17. Forced evictions of Roma18. Dissemination of information related to the ICCPR and state-NGO relations 19. Update: Discrimination against homosexualsGreeceGÇÖs dogged resistance to the notion of any form of family unit other then the GÇ£traditionalGÇ¥ family also extends to their refusal to recognize homosexual relationships. Greece GHM & MRG-G welcome the February 2005 NCHR ruling on homosexual rights[14] that recommended to the Greek government to recognize same sex couples so that they cease be discriminated against on matters of inheritance, tax, social security, health and welfare, pensions, and work. NCHR also recommended the amendment of the anti-discrimination law 927/79 (see section 11 above) to incl

[Link]

For goodness' sake, Pela. I rarely allow myself to get annoyed by this sort of thing, but your insistence on posting all these things, which are totally irrelevant to Alexander, is extremely tiresome. It is also against the very few rules of this forum.Please stop, because it's boring. If you entered into some serious discussion about Alexander and his time, people would give you much more time of day, you know.All the bestMarcus For f's sake Marcus don't get annoyed just be fair and do not disriminate re Macedonian. We are talking about a man Al. who was Macedonian and in language too. Now we also have a language that also starts with "M" and ends with "N" which spells as Macedonian also. This is no coincidece. All of Europe knows this connection from the recent and past history. Our language has been rightfully attributed as Macedonian from a long time ago and like your English has expanded and developed from/to other languages since its inception.Cheers to All.OLD MACEDONIANGLISH Koen iyas sam gnayan aza to shwo iyasWhen i's am knowan as to what i's vizden aza tia gorosali gramatik rekoi odviewed as the colossal gramatik reckons ofMakedonsi histori, verieve moy velot sestra,Makedon's history, believe my word sister,brator, keyull gnayall totalno onadto shwo iyas brother, you'll knowall totally on to what i's vidu aza chisto voda. viewed as chaste water.

[yiannis]

Let me insult you for a change:"Pella (or Parisi) you're an idiot and an insult to this forum". How's that?
You have been told so many times that this is not the place for political propaganda, yet you choose to continue. Well, at least you show us how *not* serious you're. Also it shows how desperate you're, since you percieve that the only way to be heard is to troll in history forums. Kids behave like that, serious people don't!Cheers,
Yiannis

[marcus]

Hi Tino,I don't think Shakespeare's mother tongue was French. By the end of the sixteenth century the English did all speak English. (Sorry, I had to respond to that. However, the analogy does stand.)ATBMarcus (being more pedantic than he perhaps is entitled to be)

[Linda]

Sorry - what on earth is that language you are posting, with the English below. It sounds like English spoken by someone with a toffee in their mouth.I am with Marcus - unless you can cite some proper scholarly sources, then polemic is just boring and pointless.Linda

[Link]

Can I keep it simple stupid for you.It is the Macedonian language.A simple search produces this:http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profiles/profm0 ... do-+ni-+an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ms-dn-n)
adj.
Of or relating to ancient or modern Macedonia or its peoples, languages, or cultures.n.
A native or inhabitant of ancient or modern Macedonia.
The language of ancient Macedonia, of uncertain affiliation within Indo-European.
The Slavic language of modern Macedonia, closely related to Bulgarian.
[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage-« Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright -¬ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Macedonianadj : of or relating to Macedonia or its inhabitants; "Macedonian hills" [syn: Macedonian] n 1: a native or inhabitant of Macedon [syn: Macedonian] 2: the Slavic language of modern Macedonia [syn: Macedonian]
Source: WordNet -« 2.0, -¬ 2003 Princeton University
Macedonian

[Link]

Yawnnis i found it boring. I don't know any of the people in the Macedonian Human Rights orgs. i just post it as a sig. for the stupid types that give Greeks a bad name and thus poison the air for the study of Macedonian and Al. Because of your hate, you missed the scoop. You must have come across the Farsi name for the donger when you were over there on your technology / softwear computer mission in Iran. Btw hope you Greeks arn't collaborating against us like the old days. And where is Cyrus when we need him, he is conspicious by his abscence on this one. Cyrus, is dool correct for the tool and is there a fallic connection to that DUL-KURAN(sp) description ie 2 horns on Alexanders head? Cheers