Alexander the foul-mouthed???

[kate]

Hi everyone,I read somewhere - sorry, can't remember the ref, but it might have been in "Courtesans and Fishcakes" - that the ancient Greeks didn't use sexual terms for their swearing so that they wouldn't for example tell someone to f**k off if they were annoyed with them. Do you think this is true? I seem to recall that Aristophanes was pretty bawdy, but perhaps he didn't actually use sexual four-letter words, can't remember since it's years and years since I read any of his plays.But what did Macedonians say when they were vexed? Armies in particular are noted for their bad language so presumably they had some slang to relieve their feelings even if it didn't relate to sexual terms. I was just intrigued by the idea: I mean can you imagine it, Alexander losing his rag and just saying "o golly gosh!".
OK, I'm being a bit frivolous here...and I don't suppose any of the ancient sources will be of any use, but if anyone knows anything about this point I'd be delighted if they could satisfy my curiosity.Cheers,Kate

[Angus]

"Armies in particular are noted for their bad language so presumably they had some slang to relieve their feelings even if it didn't relate to sexual terms."Hmm, not ALL armies are "noted for their bad language". Slang doesn't always imply bad language; in fact, in some armies, bad language is frowned on as a mark of a lack of education, polish & class, & soldiers are actually encouraged NOT to use it in order to make a better show of it.It's the same in ANY group of officers & the rank-&-http://file: some will use bad language & show their true class, others won't, & show theirs. I'm not speaking of class as status but as personal standards.On the other hand, bet Alexander knew a LOT of it &, ever the showman, used it to best advantage as the role might demand

[lucian]

One of the problems I have with the history of Alexander, is the lack of first hand (mouth) accounts, I've never come across a lot of quotations from Alexander, to the point that I don't even know if he had a good sense of humor. I'm going to base the language on the Romans, whose culture is not so distant from the Greeks, and the Romans were a pretty leud bunch, they were very witty with sexual remarks. I recall a remark done on the emperor Commodus, about people being able to tell the time by the size of his....
And there were many other instances with the Emperors, and Caesar's "every woman's man, and every man's woman" It doesn't seem far fetched to believe that the crudest of the Macedonians, who were not all educated, and one must remember that these guys were shepherd and common folk until Philip came along, were leud, and used loud languages. Wasn't there something about a raddish?? As for Alexander, I suppose the Greeks and Romans didn't have the problem of taking the gods name in vain, I see that a lot on the Iliad, people crying out to the gods when something goes wrong. I don't think he "cursed" as much as he didn't watch his mouth, and threatened too easielly when he lost his temper, and that might have been it for Alexander. I'm not too sure that the Greeks related royal blood to sophistication, as much as say the Rennaissance? And I do believe Phillip himself was not so mindful of his language.

[jan]

Oh, Zeus!

[ruthaki]

I can't believe they did not curse. But their words would sound quaint to modern ears, no doubt. Have you ever heard the way modern Greeks talk? The words they use as insults or curses sound pretty nice to non-Greek speakers but are basically in the same catagory as f-k and c-t. (I know, I've lived among them long enough and in fact prefer their forms of swearing to ours. Sounds nicer!)
At any rate, in writing my novel I had a lot of fun thinking up ways the foot-soldiers would talk amongst themselves. Expressions like "horse piss" etc. No doubt Alexander and his companions, who were better educated and used Greek in court if necessary, were better spoken than the commen men. But they were men, and mortals after all, and pretty rough guys at that!

[marcus]

This is always a difficult one, because of the way that our own language has changed over time. We should remember that 'vulgar' words only became 'vulgar' at certain points in time, when some people decided that they weren't fit for polite society, and therefore other euphemisms had to be invented.Having said that, I always find it objectionable when novels (particularly) insist on using certain words, simply because the stories are set in pre-euphemism times. Hence Pressfield putting all sorts of Anglo-Saxon words (to use another euphemism) in Alexander's mouth. That's not to say that Alexander *wouldn't* have spoken like that, but it just sounds false to me (sounds like a modern "if you want to sell books you have to put some swear words in", which is exactly why modern books have so much sex in them - never necessary, but it sells).Sorry, I'm rambling a bit. The point is that, just because these men were pre-Victorian, agri-pastoralists, soldiers, and perhaps not *entirely* Greek, doesn't mean that they were any more 'vulgar' than your average Athenian ... so if Aristophanes is an acceptable indication of how the man in the Athenian street spoke, then it's reasonable to use him as a guide to how the average Macedonian probably spoke.ATBMarcus

[manny05]

May I suggest categories of equivalents on the subject?1. ANIMAL EXCREMENT and excrement in general. All cultures at one point or another invoke digestive byproducts to describe people's stinky performance, merchandise, or personality. Even chimpanzees voluntarily use them when taught sign language ("You green piece of sh*t")etc. I suppose dog crap, horse manure, sheep droppings, and cow dung top the list. A major addition to this list occured when the Macedonians encountered Porus' elephants. How big were dinosaur excrement, I wonder?2. MISOGYNISTIC/CHAUVINISTIC epithets. Their equivalent of "sissy" to describe a physically soft boy or a weak man would have been quite literal, but without homosexual connotations. If you keep the company of women too long, you become like them, that sort of male supremacist psychology. "Your whore of a mother" would also be right up there with female anatomy in general as well as inferior male anatomical measurements.3. XENOPHOBIC references/allusions. For Macedonians, all adjectival forms of place names east of the Hellespont. "You Babylonian whore!" etc. Ptolemy's girlfriend, Thais, was Athenian? Corinthian? so she must have been exempt from this. She had "class." Plus Ptolemy had the absolute backing of Alexander so don't none of you sheep-screwing mountain thugs bad-mouth her or I'll tan the smelly hides of all you sons of Ammon! Opps, not that, sorry. Too south and too close to Mr. A.4. TEETOTALERS. As an alcoholic culture, Macedonian soldiers thumbed their noses (with matching adjective) at these rare but definitely recognizable histaminergic killjoys. But what really sucks is that "alcoholic" to describe Macedon only applied to men, right? Macedonian women were not allowed to get plastered, were they?Manny E(xpletive)

[??]

"in general as well as inferior male anatomical measurements."I seem to remember reading that being too BIG was considered gross and low class, not being small? heh heh heh Just think of the slang THAT would create!!!

[ruthaki]

Manny, I simply loved your post. May I steal some of those expressions? haha..

[kate]

Hi,I too loved your post, Manny. It really made me laugh! Not sure I agree with Angus though about polite armies, at least as far as ancient armies go, which were the ones I was thinking of. I suppose it's one of those things we won't ever know for sure, but I suspect that Macedonians did swear and I bet if they did that Alexander's language was particularly colourful since he liked being the best at everything!Cheers,Kate

[Angus]

It's okay to disagree, tho' I think you'll find that you can't assume based on modern armies that "foul-language' was typical. And insults would differ a LOT- not every people is as hung up on sexual terms as modern America or the UK..Tho' you'll also see I mentioned that Alexander COULD be theatrical, and to fit in, probably did curse and swear- but I'll lay money it wasn't what we'd assume today.

[rollsrite]

GREAT DIALOGUE. I LOVED HOLY ZEUS. I CAN ONLY GUESS AS THE REST OF YOU KNOW BUT MY GUESS IS ANIMAL DUNG OF ANY KIND AND PROBABLY "COWARD" WAS THE WORST THING ANY ONE COULD SAY AND I REMEMBER ALEXANDER HATED SLAKERS.