Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

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Zebedee
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by Zebedee »

Paralus wrote:Oooppps... The LLewelyns, Phillips and Joneses have defeated the Prats (er, English)!! A stumble of biblical proportions. The leaving out of Henry Slade seems telling. A try each in an otherwise penalty fest. The English prop boring in will also come under the microscope (if not "spidercam")

That said, we're yet to play England or the Three Coal Miners.
And many hangovers overtook humming bread of heaven in the valleys the following morning... Looking forward to seeing how we do against one of the two countries in the world we're allowed to make sheep jokes about. Surviving Fiji without having to call up our under 18 back line is the immediate challenge for today.

Just catching up with posts and information. Thanks gents. Most interesting.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by Paralus »

An alternate chronology...

19th minute: Foley, try
34th minute: Foley, try
79th minute: Giteua, try.

The taxiarch, Stephen Moore, drove the tight five gold phalanx up midfield. The coup de grace delivered by the chiliarch Bernard Foley on the right flank.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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agesilaos
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

Ptolemy as a rebel
Greek can be ambiguous and unsurprisingly it is here; the reading you call natural is perfectly fine grammatically, indeed the fact that the ‘openly rebelling’ is in the singular would seem to confirm it, but there is the distributive usage, where a singular can describe the actions of multiple singular entities (if there is a plural entity it should not properly be used). The context here means that the distributive is to be preferred; otherwise Polyperchon is thinking that Ptolemy will support Kassandros because he is the ruler of Egypt and Antigonos because he is openly rebelling. Rather, I think both will provide support because they are rebelling but Ptolemy has to be identified because there are so many of them and he has not been in the narrative recently.

You have misunderstood what I meant about the status of the epimeletes; we agree on this, all I was saying is that nominally any revolt is against the central authority as represented by the kings rather than against the individual Guardian and that Ptolemy was in breach of the rules of the satrapal game.

Polyperchon at Athens
Agreed, that is all I can refer to too but Boiy, whom neither of us would belittle, says that the reading should be the tenth prytanny based on the article cited, but since the seventh encompasses early Xanthikos neither reading affects my point.

I’ll get to Nora next....

You seem to have drawn your ‘alternate chronology’ from a very biased and incomplete source.. :evil:
39th minute blatant diving shoulder charge over a formed ruck punished with penalty
70th minute TMO calls play back to tackle on gold player who looked to be ball carrier Mike Brown sent off just as the we were looking to get back into things

Probably not good enough to have done it but the last ten minutes were ruined by a SA TMO, making it quits for the Aussie one giving them the Cup in France! I’m not ready for the humble-pie yet, I still have a plateful of sour grapes! :?
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

We need to talk about Nora.

The first action of the campaigning season of 319 had been Antigonos’ pursuit and defeat of Eumenes at Orkynia, the latter doubled back to the field and buried his dead, surprised Antigonos’ baggage but let it be and shed most of his strength until maybe 600 men remained to be besieged at Nora.
The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 43, Part 1 (1923) Military Operations on the North Front of Mount Taurus (Continued), William Mitchell Ramsay, pp. 1-10 (10 pages) might seem a useful paper, and for topographical considerations it is, so long as one is aware of some rather strange notions Ramsey holds; he thinks Antigonos moved on Eumenes directly from Triparadeisos and that Eumenes was in Kappadokia. This despite Plutarch’s clear placing of Eumenes’ winter quarters at Kelenai (Eumenes, 8 iii), he may not have had access to Photios,
40 How Eumenes nearly came to blows with Antipater on his arrival at Sardis, but Cleopatra, Alexander's sister, to prevent the Macedonian people accusing her of being the cause of the war, persuaded Eumenes to leave Sardis. Notwithstanding, Antipater reviled her for her friendship with Eumenes and Perdiccas. She defended herself more vigorously than a woman could have been expected to do, brought countercharges against him, and in the end they parted amicably. 41 Eumenes, having unexpectedly attacked those who did not acknowledge his authority, collected much booty and money, which he distributed amongst his soldiers. He also sent messages to Alcetas and his friends, begging them to assemble all their forces in one place so that they might unitedly attack the common enemy. But differences of opinion arose amongst them, and they finally refused. 42 Antipater, not yet daring to engage Eumenes, sent Asander against Attalus and Alcetas; after the battle had long remained undecided, Asander was defeated. 43Cassander was at variance with Antigonus, but by command of his father, Antipater, he abandoned his opposition. Nevertheless, Cassander, when he met his father in Phrygia, advised him not to get too far from the kings, and to keep watch on Antigonus ; but the latter, by his quiet behaviour, courtesy, and good qualities, did all he could to remove suspicion. Antipater, being appeased, appointed him to the command of the forces which had crossed over with him toAsia - 8500 Macedonian 'infantry, and the same number of foreign cavalry, together with half the elephants (that is, seventy) - to assist him in ending the war against Eumenes. 44 Thus Antigonus began the war. Antipater, with the kings and the rest of his forces, pretended to be going to cross over into Macedonia, but the army again mutinied and demanded their pay. Antipater promised that he would pay them when he reached Abydus, or let them have, if not the whole, at least the greater part of it. 45 Having thus encouraged their hopes, he reached Abydus without disturbance, but having deceived the soldiers, he crossed the Hellespont by night, with the kings, to Lysimachus. On the following day the soldiers also crossed, and for the moment made no further demand for their pay. With this the tenth book ends.
It is clear that Antigonos joined Kassandros and Antipatros at Sardis and wintered there. The Goteburg Palimpsest was definitely not available
[182] [GÖTEBORG PALIMPSEST] # {When . . . } was {at that} time . . . to all of them, those who were caught inside could neither break out nor come to each others' assistance, because all of them were threatened with personal danger; of those who were trapped one part . . . to themselves . . . of Eumenes, but to the foreigners . . . and on [payment of] ransom . . . in three [days] they had plenty to pay [the soldiers] 10 . . . collecting over 800, except for what . . . they did not pay the price in proportion to what had been taken away - and it was reckoned at not far short of one thousand [talents]. After acquiring this unexpected abundance of resources without any effort or danger, they held Eumenes in high esteem; and the enemy, who were astonished by the speed and the unexpectedness of his attack, still more admired his skill as a general and his very quick-witted intelligence. At the same time, they began to despise Antipater, 20because although he brought with him much larger and stronger forces to contend the war, after he set up camp near to their enemies he was unable to offer any assistance to his allies. Within sight of him and his army, the allies were captured and destroyed and sold off as booty, while Antipater was nothing better than a spectator of their sufferings.
After achieving this, while it was still winter, Eumenes sent envoys to Alcetas and Attalus and Polemon and Docimus 30 and to the others who had been appointed by Perdiccas as commanders and satraps, but had now been sentenced to death by the Macedonians. He urged them to combine all their forces and jointly undertake the war, because not only would they be a match for he enemy if they were united, but also they would be more effective if they had a common plan. If all their forces were combined, they would be the equal of the enemy in numbers, and they controlled a large amount of territory, from which they could easily support their army. If they prolonged the war, they would consistently gain extra strength, 40 because Antigonus and Antipater were already considered odious, and after failing so far to achieve anything worthy of mention, they were not surprisingly regarded with contempt. Their continual losses would make the enemy weak and easy to defeat, so that if they learned that the others were working together and uniting their forces, they would immediately sue for a truce. They would leave the others in possession of their existing territory, and content themselves with their original allotment, thereby ridding Asia of many evils. 50 If any of the commanders were not convinced by this, he told them to explain what better course they could choose instead of it, to provide deliverance from the present dangers and safety for the future. Alcetas was one of the first to do as Eumenes suggested; he wanted to attach to himself the large Macedonian army which Eumenes commanded, so that if the firm foundation of this force of foot-soldiers {was added} to the cavalry which he already had and to the mass of . .
Here we have a chronological marker; Eumenes collected his booty under the nose of Antipatros at the beginning of winter 320/19 and conducted his negotiations with Alketas etc while it was still winter. There was no campaigning in winter on the part of Antipatros/Antigonos, which needs establishing since the main chronological marker is that the siege of Nora lasted a year; hence we need to establish when it might have started.

Sardis to Kelanai is 340 miles which is an ancient month’s march with rests, so the whole of Artemisios will be spent merely approaching the enemy; Eumenes fell back into Kappadokia a further 86 miles or more say another week after which there seems to be a lull during which attempts are made to have Eumenes killed and Apollonides was turned. The battle was mid Daesios at the earliest and there followed a parallel march, similar to that before Kynoskephalai and presumably along opposite sides of a ridge line, this continued far enough for Eumenes to be able to double back and cremate and the inter his fallen officers and men before Antigonos could come up to him. There is still the incident of the baggage to fit in so we might say that it would be Panemos or June before Eumenes was bottled up at Nora.

So if, as Diodoros says XVIII 53 v,’ the siege had lasted a year’, we should expect the siege to end in Panemos 318. This suggests a much later decision by Polyperchon to seek Eumenes’ aid than the tail end of 319. If the counter-plan was the product of Xanthikos 318 the messengers had Xanthikos, Artemisios and Daisios to reach Eumenes, hardly instant messaging. From Vergina to the Taurus is about 1000 miles, which is about 33 days constantly in the saddle at 30 miles per day.

From Kelenai it was only about 200 miles to Nora, or 7 days yet Polyperchon’s message arrived not long after Antigonos’. I would reconstruct thus

Dystros 318
Kassandros absconds in reaction to Kleitos’ information

Late Dystros
Polyperchon’s synhedrion

Early Xanthikos
Polyperchon moves to Thermoplylai diagramma published
Sends to Eumenes
Arrhidaios begins to garrison cities

Late Xanthikos
Kassandros reaches Kelenai
Antigonos sends to Nora

Early Artemisios
Eumenes subverts oath and is free
Antigonos tarries awaiting reply from Nora

Late Artemisios
Polyperchon’s letter reaches Eumenes
Antigonos moves to aid Kyzikos out-distancing his news from Nora

Early Daisios
Eumenes takes over Argyraspides
Antigonos learns of escape decides to assist Kassandros and seizes Lydia
Alexander and Nikanor conferring

Late Daisios
Kassandros arrives at Peireios
Polyperchon moves into Attica
Eumenes sends out recruiting agents
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by Paralus »

We seem to be getting mired in small detail but such is the way of the subject. The language argument on Ptolemy as rebel is one such. Though I see your view I do see it that "Polyperchon is thinking that Ptolemy will support Kassandros because he is the ruler of Egypt". Diodorus is simply describing the two. The one is already rebelling as he has described (and notes several more times) and Ptolemy is painted as the ruler of Egypt - a reference to his ruling it as if spear won and he is never noted as rebelling anywhere else (in stark contrast to Antigonos).

Nothing supports that it "is clear that Antigonos joined Kassandros and Antipatros at Sardis and wintered there". Arrian (1.39) actually states that Kassandros met his father in Phrygia and although the text is severely compressed, Antigonos was with them for he showed by his behaviour he could be trusted. He was duly awarded 8,500 Macedonian infantry and an indeterminate amount of cavalry. They had clearly left Sardis. The defeat of Assander was sometime in the autumn of 320 (probably late). Polyainos 4.6.6 details 3,000 Macedonians defecting from Antigonos in the winter of 320/19 and plundering Lycaonia and Phrygia. He had to be near to the border with Kappadokia for this to occur and this is where he wintered along with the Old Rope. It is at this time the division of forces will have taken place with Antigonos moving out in the spring after Eumenes and Antipatros heading north. Indeed, the two may have separated at sometime over the winter.

Plutarch says that Eumenes wintered in Kelaini. He also says that the Perdikkan commanders met Eumenes here in the winter of 320/19. This flies in the face of the Goteborg Palimpsest (and Arrian, Succ, 1.41) which state that Eumenes sent envoys and messages to these commanders. Diodorus 18.40.1 also states that Antigonos left winter quarters to seek a confrontation with Eumenes "who was still in Kappadokia". It is clear that Diodorus' source had placed Eumenes in Kappadokia at some time during the winter of 320/19 and that either there is a lacuna or Diodorus has summarised that out, else there is no need for the redundant "still".

The road distance from Sardis to Kelaini, then, no longer matters for it seems that neither protagonist wintered where you have them - certainly Antigonos didn't. More when I can get to it.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

The point about Polyperchon’s attitude is that he is described as assuming that Ptolemy and Antigonos will join Kassandros, if you deny Ptolemy’s status as a rebel then there is no reason for the assumption. His actions are illegal enough to not require any elaboration or the intermediary source has dropped it, you do suspect a pro-Ptolemaic strain.

The question of the winter quarters is more interesting and I thought you made a good point with that ‘still in Cappadocia’…until I checked the Greek… the adjective is diatribonta here, exactly th word used of Antigonos, diatribon, at Kelenai… so we have the idea of lingering rather than still being, which means that Eumenes can have moved to Kappodokia and then tarried. I have done an England though, I have used Iconium as Kelenai rather than Apamea-on the-Maeander where it should be, however this almost assures Antigonos was at Sardis with Antipatros, if you look at the relative positions on the pelagios digital map of the Roman Empire, any other winter quarters for Antigonos would put him closer to Kappadocia, where both ended up, than Eumenes. I will have to revise things a bit now that I have the correct position for Kelenai, DOH!
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by Paralus »

I've forgotten why we're discussing Ptolemy's so called rebelling. As I say, there is no mention of such behaviour before or after this notice. I would incline to not accepting it for Polyperchon does not have to accept Ptolemy as a rebel to be aware that Kassandros has already approached him. Accepting that a pro-Ptolemaic source has erased these references (or not reported such) but let this stand, simply for explanatory purposes, does not really convince. Especially when the counter-poised descriptions of both Ptolemy and Antigonos are taken into account (the one a rebel, harsh and arrogant; the other a diamond of a bloke who is Antigonos' antithesis).

Some have postulated a lacuna between Diodorus 18.39.7 and 40.1. This is problematic: Didodorus notes that Antigonos was appointed commander in the war against the Perdikkans and the Old Rope then betook himself and the kings to Macedonia (39.7); the text reads as though as though this all occurred at Triparadeisos as Antigonos departed winter quarters immediately after this (40.1). A lacuna is a possibility but given that Diodorus has already told us that Antipatros departed with the kings for Macedonia while Antigonos was deputed the task of destorying Eumenes, the Sicilian simply summarising out the events we read elsewhere (battle against Assandros and the dilatory 'campaigning' on the way north) appeals as the more likely candidate.

Thus we are left with Plutarch's statement that Eumenes was in Kelaini during winter 320/21. There is absolutely nothing concrete for Antigonos' quarters or that of the Old Rope. What is concrete is that Antipatros departed for Macedonia from winter quarters 320/19. It is near enough to certain those winter quarters were shared with the One Eyed who displayed his trustworthiness by his behaviour. Eumenes left Sardis and moved east and Antipatros had his confab with Kleopatra. Antigonos must have carried on for we are then told that Kassandros returned to meet the Old Rope in Phrygia (Arr. Succ. 1.43). Sardis, being the capital of Lydia, is not in Phrygia and so the Old Rope has moved east, presumably to join up with Antigonos. The events narrated by the Goteborg Palimpsest, resulting in Antipatros and Antigonos being regarded with contempt, follow this and so belong to Autumn 320 and winter 320/19 ("while it was still winter, Eumenes sent envoys to Alcetas and Attalus and Polemon and Docimus..."). Thus by winter 320/19 the Old Rope has moved east into Phrygia where he meets Kassandros and then moves to join Antigonos intending to follow his son's advice. Antigonos and Antipatros are then in Phrygia in early winter 320.

To Eumenes. It is entirely possible that the Kardian moved to Kelaini as Plutarch claims. On the advance of both Antipatros and Antigonos he moves across and into Kappadokia, his old satrapy where he is far closer to the other Perdikkans in Psidia with whom he is intending to form a coalition (just as he will do in 318 moving to the upper satrapies). Phrygia had long been administered by the One Eye and Eumenes cannot have relied upon it were Antigonos to confront him there. At the break of winter quarters in 319 Eumenes is still in Kappadokia as Diodorus states - the niceties of "passing time" or "tarrying" really don't matter. The Goteborg Palimpsest confims it is winter and Eumenes passed some of it in Kappadokia where he remained until spring 319. Antigonos is also in Phrygia and likey well into that satrapy as his rebellious 3,000 leave him and plunder Lykaonia. The two forces need not be terribly far apart when Antigonos sets off after Eumenes and Antipatros heads north. What is near enough to certain, following the above, is that Antigonos' winter quarters were not in Sardis but obviously in Phrygia and east of Kelaini.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

I think we were discussing Ptolemy’s status as a rebel with reference to why Kassandros approached him and when Antigonos came into the frame, but don’t quote me on that.

Winter quarters in 319 does not really affect things for 318 (though I thought it might, the crux is the timing of Polyperchon’s letter and the offer of alliance from Antigonos, whom we do know was at Kelenai ). So in a break with tradition I’ll consider the relevant bit first.

Of course we do not know where Nora was, but if we take Garsauira as a rough area guess; Strabo describes it as being on the borders of Lycaonia (XII 2 vi), which is how Plutarch describes Nora (Eum. 10 i); we should not be wildly out. This distance is 250 miles in round numbers, ten days with rests (Dinar to Aksaray). For Polyperchon’s letter we have Verghina to Garsauria, 815 miles, given that the messenger had to find Eumenes roaming rather than the place Nora, shall we say 35 days? So, if Antigonos was waiting for news from Nora we still get Polyperchon sending a letter at the beginning of Xanthikos and Eumenes leaving Nora mid Artemisios; not a full year but a rounded one.
319 presently…
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

Now, to the not directly relevant (to the 318 ff issue) but interesting question of winter quarters for 320/319. Once more it means getting down with those ants.

Plutarch Eumenes 8
3 When Eumenes fell in with the royal herds of horse that were pasturing about Mount Ida, he took as many horses as he wanted and sent a written statement of the number to the overseers, at this, we are told, Antipater laughed and said that he admired Eumenes for his forethought, since he evidently expected to give an account of the royal properties to them, or to receive one from them. 4 Because he was superior in cavalry, Eumenes wished to give battle in the plains of Lydia about Sardis, and at the same time he was ambitious to make a display of his forces before Cleopatra; but at the request of that princess, who was afraid to give Antipater any cause for complaint, he marched away into upper Phrygia and wintered at Celaenae. Here Alcetas, Polemon, and Docimus strove emulously with him for the chief command, whereupon he said: "This bears out the saying, 'Of perdition no account is made.' “ 5 Moreover, having promised to give his soldiers their pay within three days, he sold them the homesteads and castles about the country, which were full of slaves and flocks. Then every captain in the phalanx or commander of mercenaries who had bought a place was supplied by Eumenes with implements and engines of war and took it by siege; and thus every soldier received the pay that was due him, in a distribution of the captured properties. 6 In consequence of this, Eumenes was again in high favour; and once when letters were found in his camp which the leaders of the enemy had caused to be scattered there, wherein they offered a hundred talents and honours to anyone who should kill Eumenes, his Macedonians were highly incensed and made a decree that a thousand of the leading soldiers should serve him continually as a body-guard, watching over him when he went abroad and spending the night at his door. 7 These carried out the decree, and were delighted to receive from Eumenes such honours as kings bestow upon their friends. For he was empowered to distribute purple caps and military cloaks, and this was a special gift of royalty among Macedonians.
Diodoros XVIII 39 -40
7 As general of the royal army he appointed Antigonus, assigning him the task of finishing the war against Eumenes and Alcetas; but he attached his own son Cassander to Antigonus as chiliarch so that the latter might not be able to pursue his own ambitions undetected. Antipater himself with the kings and his own army went on into Macedonia in order to restore the kings to their native land.
40 1 Antigonus, who had been designated general of Asia for the purpose of finishing the war with Eumenes, collected his troops from their winter quarters. After making preparations for the battle, he set out against Eumenes, who was still in Cappadocia. 2 Now one of Eumenes' distinguished commanders named Perdiccas had deserted him and was encamped at a distance of three days' march with the soldiers who had joined him in the mutiny, three thousand infantry and five hundred cavalry. Eumenes, accordingly, sent against him Phoenix of Tenedos with four thousand picked foot-soldiers and a thousand horsemen. 3 After a forced night march Phoenix fell unexpectedly on the deserters at about the second watch of the night, and catching them asleep, took Perdiccas alive and secured control of his troops. 4 Eumenes put to death the leaders who had been most responsible for the desertion, but by distributing the common soldiers among the other troops and treating them with kindness, he secured them as loyal supporters.
Goteborg Palimpsest
{When . . . } was {at that} time . . . to all of them, those who were caught inside could neither break out nor come to each others' assistance, because all of them were threatened with personal danger; of those who were trapped one part . . . to themselves . . . of Eumenes, but to the foreigners . . . and on [payment of] ransom . . . in three [days] they had plenty to pay [the soldiers] 10 . . . collecting over 800, except for what . . . they did not pay the price in proportion to what had been taken away - and it was reckoned at not far short of one thousand [talents]. After acquiring this unexpected abundance of resources without any effort or danger, they held Eumenes in high esteem; and the enemy, who were astonished by the speed and the unexpectedness of his attack, still more admired his skill as a general and his very quick-witted intelligence. At the same time, they began to despise Antipater, 20because although he brought with him much larger and stronger forces to contend the war, after he set up camp near to their enemies he was unable to offer any assistance to his allies. Within sight of him and his army, the allies were captured and destroyed and sold off as booty, while Antipater was nothing better than a spectator of their sufferings.
After achieving this, while it was still winter, Eumenes sent envoys to Alcetas and Attalus and Polemon and Docimus 30 and to the others who had been appointed by Perdiccas as commanders and satraps, but had now been sentenced to death by the Macedonians. He urged them to combine all their forces and jointly undertake the war, because not only would they be a match for he enemy if they were united, but also they would be more effective if they had a common plan. If all their forces were combined, they would be the equal of the enemy in numbers, and they controlled a large amount of territory, from which they could easily support their army. If they prolonged the war, they would consistently gain extra strength, 40 because Antigonus and Antipater were already considered odious, and after failing so far to achieve anything worthy of mention, they were not surprisingly regarded with contempt. Their continual losses would make the enemy weak and easy to defeat, so that if they learned that the others were working together and uniting their forces, they would immediately sue for a truce. They would leave the others in possession of their existing territory, and content themselves with their original allotment, thereby ridding Asia of many evils. 50 If any of the commanders were not convinced by this, he told them to explain what better course they could choose instead of it, to provide deliverance from the present dangers and safety for the future. Alcetas was one of the first to do as Eumenes suggested; he wanted to attach to himself the large Macedonian army which Eumenes commanded, so that if the firm foundation of this force of foot-soldiers {was added} to the cavalry which he already had and to the mass of . . .
Arrian Ta Meta Alexandron 11
The tenth book relates how Eumenes, having heard what had befallen Perdiccas, and that he himself had been declared an enemy by the Macedonians, made all preparations for war ; how Alcetas, the brother of Perdiccas, took refuge with him on that account; how Attalus, who had been one of the ringleaders in the insurrection against Antipater, also joined the exiles with a force of 10,000 foot and 800 horse; how Attalus and his troops attacked Cnidus, Caunus, and Rhodes. The Rhodians, under their admiral, Demaratus, completely repulsed them. 40 How Eumenes nearly came to blows with Antipater on his arrival at Sardis, but Cleopatra, Alexander's sister, to prevent the Macedonian people accusing her of being the cause of the war, persuaded Eumenes to leave Sardis. Notwithstanding, Antipater reviled her for her friendship with Eumenes and Perdiccas. She defended herself more vigorously than a woman could have been expected to do, brought countercharges against him, and in the end they parted amicably. 41 Eumenes, having unexpectedly attacked those who did not acknowledge his authority, collected much booty and money, which he distributed amongst his soldiers. He also sent messages to Alcetas and his friends, begging them to assemble all their forces in one place so that they might unitedly attack the common enemy. But differences of opinion arose amongst them, and they finally refused. 42 Antipater, not yet daring to engage Eumenes, sent Asander against Attalus and Alcetas; after the battle had long remained undecided, Asander was defeated. 43Cassander was at variance with Antigonus, but by command of his father, Antipater, he abandoned his opposition. Nevertheless, Cassander, when he met his father in Phrygia, advised him not to get too far from the kings, and to keep watch on Antigonus ; but the latter, by his quiet behaviour, courtesy, and good qualities, did all he could to remove suspicion. Antipater, being appeased, appointed him to the command of the forces which had crossed over with him toAsia - 8500 Macedonian 'infantry, and the same number of foreign cavalry, together with half the elephants (that is, seventy) - to assist him in ending the war against Eumenes. 44 Thus Antigonus began the war. Antipater, with the kings and the rest of his forces, pretended to be going to cross over into Macedonia, but the army again mutinied and demanded their pay. Antipater promised that he would pay them when he reached Abydus, or let them have, if not the whole, at least the greater part of it. 45 Having thus encouraged their hopes, he reached Abydus without disturbance, but having deceived the soldiers, he crossed the Hellespont by night, with the kings, to Lysimachus. On the following day the soldiers also crossed, and for the moment made no further demand for their pay.
Diadoch Chronicle BCHP 3/ABC 10
24 {5'} {lú ERÍN LUGAL} lú ERÍN.MEŠ LUGAL ina gišTUKUL GAZ.MEŠ ITI APIN UD 10 [+? KAM .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..] The troops of the king were slaughtered. Month VIII, day 10 (14 November 320) [.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..]
25 {6'} LÚ GAL.UKKIN KUR URI.KI ana E.KI KU4 MU BI SAHAR.HI.A [šá É.SAG.ÍL (.....) id-de-ku-ú] the satrap of Akkad entered Babylon. That month, debris [of Esagila was (not?) removed.]
------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------
26 {7'} MU 5.KAM mPi-líp-i-si ITI NU ZU LUGAL mAn-ti-gu-n[u-su .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..] Year 5 of Philip (319/18), unknown month. The king [left] Antigon[us in charge (...) and he]
27 {8'} a-na KUR Ma-ak-<ka->du-nu i-bir-ma ana EGIR-šú NU GUR-ár ina /ku\-t[a?-al-li (?) šatti(?) .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..] went to the land Macedonia and did not return. In a later part? [of the year?.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..]
Polyainos IV 6
While Antigonus was wintering in Cappadocia, three thousand Macedonian hoplites revolted from him. They took up a strong position on the mountains, from which they ravaged Lycaonia and Phrygia. Antigonus thought it cruel, to put such a number of men to death; and yet was afraid, lest they should join the enemy, who were commanded by Alcetas. He therefore carried out the following stratagem. He dismissed Leonidas, one of his generals; who immediately went over to the rebels, and offered to join them. They readily accepted his offer; and appointed him their general. The first step he took, was to persuade them not to attach themselves to any party, which relieved Antigonus of his fears. Leonidas afterwards contrived to draw them from the mountains to a place, which was suitable for cavalry action, though they themselves had no cavalry. There Antigonus surprised them with a detachment of horsemen, and seized Holcias and two of the leaders of the revolt. They threw themselves upon his mercy, and begged for their lives; which he granted, on condition, that they would leave the camp without tumult or confusion, and return to Macedonia. They accepted the terms; and Leonidas was sent to conduct them to Macedonia, and deliver them to their respective homes
Most of this is above but it might be easier to have the texts to hand. A good place to start is Triparadeisos; a good indication of when this ended is the entry of Seleukos into Babylon on day 10 of month VIII. Triparadeisos was in upper Syria perhaps near Laodicea ad Libanum, near modern Al Qusayr, from there to Babylon is c.775 miles via Thapsakos. At an average of 30 mpd this is 26 days, add in a rest day every four and we get 40 days as the quickest Seleukos would probably have moved putting Triparadeisos at the beginning of October 320 (Dios, Babylonian month VII Tashritu). Were he to move at army pace it would be 80 days with Triparadeisos ending in the last week of August (Gorpiaos, Babylonian V Abu).

Antipatros we know moved from Triparadeisos to Sardes this is 930 miles, 150 miles further so he would have reached Sardis about two weeks after Seleukos reached Babylon, if they set off at the same time, and both moved at army rates. It is apparent why the Gotesborg palimpsest puts the fund raising raids of Eumenes and Antipatros and Antigonos’ passive spectating in winter. This was probably from a camp in Phrygia, the proximity to the enemy is stated and Kelenai is the capital of Greater Phrygia. Eumenes operating here also explains why those he predates upon are termed ‘allies’ as they are the inhabitants of Antigonos’ satrapy.

I would suggest that Antipatros went ahead with part of the army and left Antigonos and Kassandros to bring up the tail, including the elephants, thus speeding his march but leaving him too weak to attack Eumenes. This allows Kassandros to meet his father in Phrygia without Eumenes having to withdraw from his stated winter quarters in Plutarch. United the Royal army was still felt too weak to move against Eumenes so divided it seems only a part was sent against Alketas with Asandros. The army was clearly dispersed for winter quarters, as Antigonos has to ‘gather’ it, the same would be so for Eumenes’ forces which predicates some separation (similar circumstances prevailing on the Iranian plateau before Gabiene). The HQs would have been in a comfortable city however which means Kelanai for Eumenes and Sardis for Antipatros et al. No army would move base in mid-winter for fun; Antipatros had demonstrated that he was not a threat to Eumenes and the latter would not have posed a threat to Sardis until spring. In the event the Perdikkans’ refusal to act in concert forced Eumenes to retreat to his own base in Kappadokia.

Polyainos puts Antigonos’ winter quarters in Kappadokia, but since he was with Antipatros this must be a confusion on his part, which makes the raiding of Lykaonia similarly suspect, Phrygia lying between Sardis and Kelenai seems right, it could be an error for Lykia, though why that would happen is a mystery.

The Babylonian Chronicle puts Antipatros’ departure for Europe in Philip’s fifth year which began in Artemisios/Nisanu 319, April, which is when we would expect him to move.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

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The detail here is distracting from the general debate. That said, Antipatros, moving independently of Antigonos is reasonably clearly indicated by the sources. Diodorus (18.39.7), in his shorthand style, certainly means that when he has Antipatros designate Antigonos the task of finishing off Eumenes and the others while he departs to Macedonia. This summarises all we know from the other sources and is typical of the Sicilian at his worst: eight months reduced to one sentence. It is a somewhat melancholy reminder of the state of the evidence Diodorus presents us with on more than the odd occasion. In my view Antipatros went directly to Sardis from Triparadeisos while Antigonos took the bulk of the forces off in pursuit of the Perdikkans whose whereabouts, relative strength and location needed to be determined. From here we are reduced to deduction and postulation based on what evidence we have. Plutarch is not interested in the structure and timing of events, only the instructive nature of them to illustrate his subject (a classic example being Pyrrhos' acceptance of the invitation to Italy: Plutarch, for thematic purposes, presents this as happening straight after his loss of Macedonia when, in fact, some three years have elapsed).

Antigonos is clearly not in winter quarters at Sardis as I've argued above and wherever we decide those quarters are, Antipatros winds up as well for he takes the kings and gifts part of his forces to the One Eye. If we suppose the Old Rope remained in Sardis for the winter he has to march east a considerable way to locate Antigonos before gifting his army and marching to the Hellespont. That remains a possibility but the more likely option is that he followed after Antigonos having done with Kleopatra in Sardis over the early autumn of 320. Thus Kassandros meets him in Phrygia - not in Lydia. It is from this meeting that the Old Rope determines to take possession of the kings – not something, I’d think given his son’s report, he’d do by long distance messenger. Antipatros has marched to Antigonos’ position where, by spring, he has taken custody of the kings and delegated a good part of his army to Antigonos. From here, in Phrygia, the Old Rope heads to the Hellespont.

If we can trust that Photios has not confused the order of events in Arrian, his summary has the following order of events:

The Old Rope in Sardis; Eumenes near Sardis (1.40)
Eumenes raiding to the east of Sardis and sends to Perdikkan commanders (1.41)
Antipatros sends Assander against Perdikkans (1.42)
Kassandros suspicious of Antigonos’ ambitions, meets his father in Phrygia (1.43)
Antipatros gifts troops and takes kings heading home (1.43)
The One Eye begins the war (1.44)

Now, at the beginning of the new campaigning season Eumenes is still in Kappadokia (Diod.18.40.1). We know from the Goteborg Palimpsest that Eumenes’ successful plundering is in late autumn / early winter for “while it was still winter”, Eumenes attempts to convince the others to join together. This can have been a process over the winter rather than one single communication. The note of sending messengers may well have been to meet in Kelaini as Plutarch Eum. 8.4 clearly implies they actually met here. This will be after Assander, satrap of Karia, was sent against the Perdikkans in Psidia and defeated. Having met, they separated and went their own ways – Alketas, Attalos and Dokimos back to their forces in Psidia and Eumenes, given the refusal to cooperate, likely moves into Kappadokia . From here the messengers go between the parties. Compression is the concern in Photios and a meeting of commanders in Kelaini followed by messengers before the spring is a very distinct possibility given our sources.

Wherever Antigonos is in early winter 320, Antipatros meets up with him. Given the state of the sources we must guess at when the two separated but it might well be that this occurred in early winter with Antipatros gifting troops and turning towards home. Either way, Antigonos is somewhere in Phrygia over the winter of 320/19 and not in Sardis. The first action of spring 319 is Orkynii on a plain in Kappadokia. The nearest modern town to Sardis is Sart. Apamea or Kelaini is Dinar. I have guessed the site of the battle as the plain about Nigde (either east or west). The journey is one of some 697 km or 436 miles by foot. It is not likely that the One Eye has marched that distance from Sardis to engage Eumenes in early spring 319. Far more likely is that Antigonos was encamped somewhere in the east of his own satrapy. Despite your suggestion there was no campigning over the winter, there certainly was raiding. Winter campaigns and marches are a feature of these times.

Polyainos supports this. While nothing precludes a misunderstanding of Lykaonia for Lykia, nothing demands it either. The pertinent part is the fear that these troops might join up with Alketas who is in Psidia. This makes far more geographical sense if Antigonos is in Phrygia and at least as far in as Ikonion.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

Agreed this isn’t anything to do with 316/5 so I will just have one more go at sowing a doubt. I don’t say that winter saw no fighting, the Goteborg Palimpsest clearly states that Eumenes’ expropriations took place in winter as ‘it was still winter’ when he tried to get the Perdikkans to pull together (unless there is some problem with the Greek , which does not seem to be available).

Now, the date of Seleukos’ entry into Babylon also points to Antipatros and Antigonos only being at Sardes in December, the climate of that region of Turkey is quite mild, though still snowy (Izmir/Smyrna is better being beside the sea, where the elephants wintered?); Kappadocia is a frozen hell, however and Eumenes had 20,000 foot and 5,000 cavalry (XVIII 40 vii). To move this force 250 miles at mid-winter, may not be a retreat to the Berezina but does not look a good option to me.

I will let you have a final word and then move on to the original matter. :D
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by agesilaos »

It is about time to get back on this but before launching in I thought I would just put Anson’s arguments out there, this is from ‘Alexander’s Heirs’ the Amazon preview, it is still a bit pricey for my pocket.

I will be incommunicado for the rest of the week so I thought it might be useful for others to read this and hopefully save me the bother of applying this methodology to the earlier events (chronological paralellism of theatres)…or not :cry:

Chronology for 314 – 306
One of the most recent arguments for the High Chronology concerns the Nemean Games which were held under Cassander’s presidency. Since these Games were held every two years, both before and after the year of the Olympic Games, the only possible years in which the Nemean Games could have taken place under the presidency of Cassander as described in Diodorus are 315 and 313. Those in favour of the high chronology accept 315, assuming that Cassander’s operations in the Peloponnesus, which began when he heard that Aristodemus had arrived in Greece and concluded with the celebration of the games, all occurred in the same year, 315 (Boiy 2007b: 149; Stylianou 1994: 83; Meeus 2012:76-7), as opposed to the assumption that these events took place over a two year period, with Cassander wintering near Orchomenus at the conclusion of his first year’s operations (as in this chapter’s narrative). Diodorus’ archon year 315/14 (19.55.1) corresponds to a period beginning with the late spring or more likely early summer of 315, with Antigonus leaving Susa (19.55.1), having left winter quarters in Diodorus’ previous year (316/15) (19 46.1), then proceeding through Antigonus wintering in Mallus, and concluding in the summer of 313, with the end of the fifteen month siege of Tyre and some subsequent naval operations (Diod 19.62.6-9, 64.7-8). This supposed archon year of 315/14 then covered two years.

Without the winter break in Orchomenus, Cassander’s operations - if they all took place in the one year, 315 – become incredibly compressed. First, Diodorus makes it very clear that Cassander did not move from Macedonia until he heard of Aristodemus’ arrival in the Peloponnesus, ‘of the multitude of mercenaries that he had collected,’ and of the alliance he had formed with Polyperchon and Alexander (Diod.19.63.3) . Aristodemus left for Greece early in the year but only after Antigonus had left winter quarters, moved into northern Syria, and received the envoys from his former allies, whose demands he rejected. After hearing of the new alliance between Antigonus’ officer and Polyperchon, Cassander then attempted to win the former regent over to his side before moving south. All of these individual events would have taken time. It was then at the earliest late spring before Cassander marched his army south. He spent some time in Boeotia rebuilding the Theban walls, proceeded to capture the Corinthian port and two other fortresses in Corinthia, before moving to Arcadia, there having the city of Orchomenus betrayed to him, from there proceeding to Messenia and finally returning to Megalopolis. All of these activities would have to have taken place before August, when the Nemean Games began. Simply travelling, without the other activities, the roughly 560 miles would have taken time. Even though Diodorus does not indicate the entrance into winter quarters by Cassander between his departure from Macedonia and the start of the Nemean Games, this is clearly an oversight, for in the same time comparison (Europe/Asia), he also fails to note Antigonus entering winter quarters, thus placing the fifteen-month siege of Tyre all in the same archon year.

While Diodorus’ chronology does have problems, he does appear to put events noted geographically into a relative sequence, and he makes a serious attempt to correlate the different geographic sections within the same time period. His difficulty with respect to events in Europe and Asia is that his source, again most likely in the main Hieronymus of Cardia, arranged events seasonally (Smith 1961), while Diodorus attempted to implement his flawed chronological system of archon and consular years and Olympiads. TInthe case of Diodorus’ archon year 316/5 (19.17.1), he correlates Cassander’s campaign south, undertaken after the death of Olympias, to his return to Macedonia (Diod.19.53.1-2, 54.1 3-4), with the operations of Antigonus following his departure from Media down to his arrival in Susa (Diod.19.46.5, 48.7-8). Cassander’s invasion of the Peloponnesus the following year, 315/14 (Diod.19.55.1), including his presidency of the Nemean Games and his return toMacedonia (Diod.19.63.3-64.1), is correlated with Antigonus’ activities from his departure from Susa (Diod.19.55.1) to the fall of Tyre (Diod.19.61.5). It is clear that Diodorus, with respect to Antigonus has related events that happened over two winters, that spent by him in Malus in Cilicia and the other likely at Tyre in the midst of the fifteen-month siege, which only began after Antigonus’ departure from Malus. It should then be assumed that Diodorus followed the same chronological pattern with regard to Cassander’s activities during the same narrated time period. If this particular invasion of the Peloponnesus by Cassander begins in one year and ends in the next, then the problem of the Nemean Games is eliminated. By the low chronology, Cassander invaded the Peloponnesus after the arrival of Aristodemus in 314 and after wintering in the Peloponnesus presided at the Games in August of 313.

Diodorus’ archon year 314/13 (19.66.1) then begins in the summer of 313, and concludes with the winter of the same year. The last reference to Antigonus in this archon year has that commander entering winter quarters (Diod.19.69.2). There then follows the indication of the new archon year, 313/12 (19.73.1), which in reality corresponds to the start of 312, with Antigonus leaving these winter quarters (Diod.19.74.1) and Polemaeus still n winter quarters when Asander and Prepelaus attempt their surprise attack (Diod.19.68.5). This year then ends in the following winter, with the new archon year, 312/11 (Diod.19.77.1), beginning with the spring departure of Polemaeus for Greece (cf,Diod.19.77.1), and concluding in the winter with Anigonus (19.77.7) and Cassander (19.89.2) entering winter quarters and Demetrius returning from his attack on Babylonia (19.100.7). It is clear that Diodorus’ archon year 312/11 reflects events occurring in the solar year 311.

The battle of Gaza then took place in the late fall of 312; given by many references to winter around the time of the conflict, probably in November (see Anson 2006b; 228-9), or perhaps as early as October (Wheatley 2003a; 271-5; cf 2009b 328 n.22, 329-33). The high chronology dates the battle to the spring of 312, but much of this argument has now been demolished (Boiy 2007b;115-17; Wheatley 2009b; 328 n.22). Moreover, Diodorus’ narrative of the prelude to the battle excludes such an early date. Demetrius (19.80.5), Antigonus (19.77.7), and Cassander (19.89.2) were all clearly in winter quarters prior to the conflict and Diodorus, 19.77.7, states that Antigonus took up winter quarters when ‘the winter season was closing in on him,’ and was still in these quarters when the letter from Demetrius calling him back to Syria arrived (Diod.19.85.8, 93.3).
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

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I'd left this given the death of Agesilaos. I feel I shall perhaps get back to it given that I have had the book from which the above comes for some time - and more from the perspective of addressing Anson than a the friend now lost (though I believe he'd have concurred with Anson). With a head buried in the world of Antiochos III at present, it may be a little time before I "reset". At least the thread is back up from the annals and easier to locate.
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by Alexias »

I'm glad to hear it. Hopefully it will encourage others to participate, and a proper discussion - in the sense of investigating a subject and sharing knowledge - will develop, rather than an argument for the sake of argument, which has to be won at all costs. This forum needs to be a place where people can contribute without fear of being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. :)
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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Post by sean_m »

Alexias wrote:I'm glad to hear it. Hopefully it will encourage others to participate, and a proper discussion - in the sense of investigating a subject and sharing knowledge - will develop, rather than an argument for the sake of argument, which has to be won at all costs. This forum needs to be a place where people can contribute without fear of being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. :)
I hope so too Alexias.
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