Andriscus and Archelaus

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Hypaspist
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Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by Hypaspist »

1. Anyone knows what happened at the second battle of Pydna in 148 b.c; Andriscus vs. Rome? I know he lost, but I can't seem to find any details on the battle.

2. More importantly; anyone aware of the battle details concerning Andriscus victory against the romans where he raised thracian army, invaded Macedonia and beat the praetor Publius juventius in 149 b.c? This one battle would actually suggest another phalanx victory against the legions??

Cassios Dio, Fragmens of Book XXI:
The Romans at first scorned Andriscus, and then they sent Scipio Nasica to settle matters there in some peaceable manner. On reaching Greece and ascertaining what had occurred, he sent a letter to the Romans explaining the situation; then after collecting troops from the allies there he devoted himself to the business in hand and advanced as far as Macedonia. The people of Rome, when informed of the doings of Andriscus, sent an army along with Publius Juventius, a praetor. Juventius had just reached the vicinity of Macedonia when Andriscus gave battle, killed the praetor, and would have annihilated his entire force had they not withdrawn by night.

3. How about the Mithridatic Wars?
- I can't believe Archelaus army was as many as 120 000 at Chaeronea?? And the romans only 40 000? That has to be pure propaganda! How many did the romans lose according to Sulla? 14, 15 men... pleeeaaaseeee! I read the account of the battle and it sounds chaotic at best. Intense combat ensued in the center of the line, however the battle was decided on the flanks. Archelaus' cavalry charge on the roman left nearly left it crumbled, upon which Sulla crossed from the roman right to help out prompting Archelaus to move south to attack the vulnerable roman right(!), whereupon (sigh)Sulla headed back to the south! Anyhow, as you all know, the romans then went onto the offensive and pushed back their opponents.The pontic reatreat turned into a rout.

Plutarch in Life of Sylla:
Many barbarians were slain in the field, many more were cut in pieces as they were making into the camp. Of all the vast multitude, ten thousand only got safe into Chalcis. Sylla writes that there were but fourteen of his soldiers missing, and that two of these returned towards evening

I would like to know what you think of this battle? Why did the Pontic army lose? And what do you have to say about the numbers; death toll, opponents?? The pontic army could hardly have amassed some 120 000 considering how everyone's constantly harping about the difficulties of fielding such numerous armies.



4. The battle of Orchomenus of 86 B.C also ended in total disaster. It's always the same... the phalanx being disrupted by their own, and the romans capitalizing on it... sigh... What do you guys have to say about the numbers? Romans 15 000, the pontic army 75 000? 100 romans killed while about 15 000 on the other side slain??



All the best,
Robert
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by agesilaos »

There is more on Andriskos in Livy and Diodoros
Diodoros XXXI

40a Once again a popular uprising, due to the disaffection of the masses, threatened Demetrius with the loss of his throne. One of his mercenary troops, a man named Andriscus, bore a close resemblance to Philip, the son of Perseus, both in appearance and stature, and while at first it was only in jest and derision that his friends called him "son of Perseus," soon the statement won popular credence. Andriscus, boldly taking his cue from this talk, not only declared that he was indeed the son of Perseus, but adducing a fictitious story of his birth and upbringing, even approached Demetrius with a crowd of followers and called upon him to restore him to Macedonia and to the throne of his fathers. Now Demetrius at first regarded him as a crank. But when the populace had gathered, and many speakers declared that Demetrius should either restore Andriscus or, if he could not or would not play the king, should abdicate,55 Demetrius, fearing the quick temper of the mob, had Andriscus arrested during the night and sent him off straightway to Rome with a full report to the senate of the claims made for the man.

XXXII

9a The pseudo-Philip, after gaining a resounding victory over the Romans,28 shifted to a course of savage cruelty and tyrannical disregard for law. He put many wealthy persons to death, after first throwing out false and slanderous charges against them, and murdered not a few even of his friends. For he was by nature brutal, bloodthirsty, and arrogant in manner, and was, moreover, shot through with greed and every base quality.
9b The false Philip appointed Telestes general. He, however, seduced by the promises of the Romans, revolted and went over with his cavalry to Caecilius. The pseudo-Philip, enraged at his conduct arrested the wife and children of Telestes, and vented his anger on them.


15 1 [Concerning him there is again an account elsewhere.]22 When King Demetrius sent on to Rome the self-styled son of Perseus, a young man named Andriscus, the senate ordered him to live in a certain city of Italy. But after a period he escaped and sailed off to Miletus. 2 During his stay there he invented tales about himself purporting to demonstrate that he was the son of Perseus. He said that while still an infant he had been given to . . . the Cretan p425to rear, and that the Cretan had transmitted to him a sealed tablet, in which Perseus revealed to him the existence of two treasures, one at Amphipolis, lying beneath the highway at a depth of ten fathoms (?), containing one hundred and fifty talents of silver, and the other, of seventy talents, at Thessalonica, in the middle of the exedra of the colonnade, opposite the court. 3 Since his story attracted much attention, it finally reached the ears of the magistrates of Miletus, who arrested him and placed him in prison. Certain envoys happening to visit the city, they referred the matter to them, seeking advice on what should be done. They scoffingly bade the magistrates let the fellow loose to go his own way. 4 He, on receiving his release, set himself in earnest to act out and make a reality of his mummery. By constantly embroidering the story of his royal birth, he gulled many, even the Macedonians themselves. 5 Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaüs, a Macedonian by birth, he learned from him that a woman called Callippa, who had been a concubine of King Perseus, was now the wife of Athenaeus of Pergamum. Accordingly he made his way to her, and pouring out his romantic tale of kinship to Perseus procured from her funds for his travels, a regal costume, a diadem, and two slaves suited to his needs. From her he heard, moreover, that Teres, a Thracian chieftain, was married to a daughter of the late King Philip.23 p4276 Encouraged by this support he made for Thrace. On the way he stopped at Byzantium and was received with honour — a display of folly for which the citizens of Byzantium later paid the penalty to Rome. With more and more people flocking to him, he arrived in Thrace at the court of Teres. As a mark of honour Teres presented him with a troop of a hundred soldiers, and placed a diadem on his head. 7 Recommended by him to the other chieftains, Andriscus received from them another hundred men. Proceeding to the court of the Thracian chieftain Barsabas, he prevailed upon him to take part in the expedition and to escort him home to Macedonia, for he was now asserting, on the grounds of inheritance, a legal claim to the Macedonian throne. Defeated in battle by Macedonicus24 this false Philip took refuge in Thrace. . . . Finally he25 gained the upper hand in the cities throughout Macedonia.
Livy Periochae (Summary)
Book 48
Andriscus, who pretended persistently that he was the son of Perseus, the former king of Macedonia, was sent to Rome.

Book 49

A certain Andriscus, a man of the lowest kind, pretending to be a son of king Perseus, changed his name into Philip, and secretly fled from the city of Rome, to which king Demetrius of Syria had sent him, precisely because of this lie; many people were attracted by his false story (as if it were true), he gathered an army and occupied all of Macedonia, whether the people wanted it or not.

He told the following story: born as the son of king Perseus and a courtesan, he had been handed over for education to a certain Cretan, so that, in this situation of war against the Romans, some scion of the royal stock would survive. Without knowledge of his family and believing that the man who taught him was his father, he had been educated at Adramyttion until he was twelve years old. When this man fell ill and was close to the end of his life, he finally told Andriscus about his origin and gave his "mother" a writing that had been sealed by king Perseus, which she should give the boy when he reached maturity, and the teacher added that everything had to be kept secret until that moment. When he reached maturity, Andriscus received the writing, from which he learned that his father had left him two treasures. Until then he had only known that he was a foster son and had been unaware about his real ancestry; now his foster mother told him about his lineage and begged him to avoid being assassinated by departing from the country before the news reached [king] Eumenes [II Soter of Pergamon], an enemy of Perseus. Frightened and hoping to obtain assistance from Demetrius, he went to Syria, where he had declared for the first time who he was.

Book 50
Thessaly, which the false Philip wanted to invade and occupy with his armies, was defended by Roman envoys and Achaean allies

[147] After the false Philip had massacred praetor Publius Juventius with his army in Macedonia, he was defeated and captured by Quintus Caecilius, and Macedonia was subdued again.


It does not seem to me that this pretender levied a Macedonian style army, rather he would seem to have a Thracian style force based on cavalry and theurophoroi. That Publius Juventus' army slipped away in the night speaks more of an ambush than a pitched battle to me. nor is it entirely clear that the army he was commanding was based on a legion, the Oxyrhynchus Epitome of Livy has (Book L, ll108-9)

Per socios popu[li R. Andriscus ex Thessalia pulsus]
in ultimam T[hraciam.


'By the Allies of the Roman people Andriscus was driven from Thessaly to the ends of Thrace.' and later the bald statement ll 126-7

in] Thessalia exercitus caesus.
[Andriscus a] Metello captus.


'In Thessally an army was lost. Andriscus was captured by Metellus'

Hope this is of help, but IMHO not a phalanx victory.
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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Thank you Agesilaos. Thank you for your time and effort. Appreciate it a lot.

Very interesting to read about it. You're probably right, I don't think it was Macedonian style army either. Regarding it being a legion or not, well, it might've been, and on the other hand perhaps it wasn't... who knows... (The Shadow knows, ha ha ha!!)

You wouldn't happen to have any info on my other questions? :)
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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I will get round to it, but I am labouring over a reply to Xenophon at the moment; it was just going to be about 'drill' but as is the nature of these things is growing into a good look at the battle of Kynoskephalai, which means trying to read as many other accounts as possible in case my 'findings' are actually 'old hat'! It will have to be on the 'off-topic' board, we get away with long threads on the Diadochoi, but the later Antigonids might raise a few eye-brows! :shock:
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by Hypaspist »

Oh, you mean from the Macedonian army rotation post?

Well, I'll have to agree with Xenophon on that one - that battle was mor close-run than people think.
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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agesilaos wrote:I will get round to it, but I am labouring over a reply to Xenophon at the moment; it was just going to be about 'drill' but as is the nature of these things is growing into a good look at the battle of Kynoskephalai, which means trying to read as many other accounts as possible in case my 'findings' are actually 'old hat'! It will have to be on the 'off-topic' board, we get away with long threads on the Diadochoi, but the later Antigonids might raise a few eye-brows! :shock:
Rules? Off topic?? Post away: there needs something to be discussed here. But, be warned: there will be counters - ever more ingenious - to whatever you postulate!
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by agesilaos »

'Beware of those who agree with you, they are the way to ruin', or so Nietzsche has it; I will post it as a new thread here, then, the substantive question about rotation having been answered, viva la revolucion!
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by Xenophon »

Agesilaos wrote:
agesilaos wrote:I will get round to it, but I am labouring over a reply to Xenophon at the moment; it was just going to be about 'drill' but as is the nature of these things is growing into a good look at the battle of Kynoskephalai, which means trying to read as many other accounts as possible in case my 'findings' are actually 'old hat'! It will have to be on the 'off-topic' board, we get away with long threads on the Diadochoi, but the later Antigonids might raise a few eye-brows! :shock:
Well, there's a surprise!! Bit late in the day though to be disputing the essentials of hoplite drill. The essence - operating in 'open order' files, and then closing up into half-files in 'close order' for battle has been well known now for over 40 years at least, and probably longer [ J.K. Anderson "Military Theory & Practice in the Age of Xenophon, 1970; P Connolly "Greek Armies" 1977; myself in Warry "Warfare in the Classical World " 1979 - all independently in those pre-internet days]

As far as I am aware, this is widely accepted and certainly not controversial.

On the other hand, a discussion about Kynoskephalae - an old friend - would be perhaps interesting....... :wink: :D

Though of course we have several other threads as 'unfinished business'.
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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Cynoscephalae? I thought you guys straightened that out? Though, of course, if you feel any unclear points hovering over the horizon, it's always interesting to follow regardless.

I guess, Xeno, it's time for you too lower your sarissa and go: "Enyalios, Enyalios!!"
And Agesilaos, pull out your gladius!
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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Kynoskephalai might be a little fun...
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by Hypaspist »

Yes, Paralus...

That battle along with Pydna just galls my soul....


If Pyrrhus commanded the macedonian side in those battles, or Hannibal... we would probably have victories, or a draw at worst...

But those were close-run battles... at Kynoskephalai the phalanx hadn't even formed up when the elephants came charging... so many stupid factors played the victory straight into the hands of the silly romans. Unfair...unfair...

Btw, Am I missing some private joke here? Why, all of a sudden, this urge to discuss Kynoskephalai specifically... ? :?
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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A favourite record perhaps.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by amyntoros »

I haven't posted anything in a while because of health matters, although I still check the site several times a day to attack the spammers! Just thought I'd pop in now and say that I (as a moderator) have no objections to a thread concerning "the later Antigonids" being posted on the main forum. It must be more than a year now since we asked if Pothosians would like to extend the area of interest here. My recollection is that responses were minimal - an understatement at that.

Today our most prolific posters have a great interest in the period following Alexander's death and I see no reason to discourage them from discussing the same on the main forum. It might be nice to have a separate forum but Thomas has embarked on a new adventure in life and I don't want to trouble him with setting this up. Personally, I'd like to see everything on the same forum. There is a forum on ancient military history (those posting currently will know which one I mean) that has divided into many sub-forums. Unfortunately I think that people are more likely to read only the forums in which they think they are interested and this does seem to discourage participation somewhat. I would like to encourage it, as much as I can. This is, after all, the twentieth anniversary of the founding of the "first web site dedicated to Alexander the Great"! Isn't this a perfect time to open up the forum a little?

I think it would be nice though to have a prefix on a new thread, be it "Diadochoi" or "Antigonids" or whatever is suitable. And I'd like to know how Marcus feels about this also.

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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

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As one of the Churchillian 'few', I think that is a splendid idea!
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Re: Andriscus and Archelaus

Post by agesilaos »

I too voted; though if I described myself as Churchillian it might raise eyebrows being firmly on the side of the devil, be him Red or Brown, rather than the decadent Western democracies :twisted: This thread is actually 'Post-Antigonid' itself!

It is something of a moot point as to what extent Antigonid practices can be retrojected upon the Argaeads or their practice projected onto their successors; which does, of course mean lots of arguments, sorry, discussion :oops:

Hypaspist, the reason for choosing Kynoskephalai to discuss, is that we have the account of one of the better historians of antiquity, Polybios, and some detail to the various manouevres, there are also some questions which need to be answered and which have not been and I have a new way to approach these ('new' does not necessarily make it better, of course! :shock: ); I like to bring something new to the table, even if Paralus will just nibble at it and Xenophon will behave as only characters in Rabelais do :lol: Also NGL Hammond wrote an article about this battle, and as a reactionary rather than a revolutionary, it is a good foundation to have something with which to disagree! I will try to post over the weekend, which is a Communist holiday here, so I get an extra day, it will be quite a long one but I will break it into headed paragraphs for easier consumption; I find that if you post in segments there are so many digressions after the first post that the whole is lost in the same fashion as the oozlum-bird, which flies in ever decreasing circles...it's just that some digressions are more interesting than the original post! Anyway, I should be getting on with Kynoskephalai rather than posting here; I'm a sucker for displacement activity!!!
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