Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

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Alita
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Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Alita »

As these are the days of Alexander the Great's birthday, I thought it would be a good time to finally watch the 'Alexander' film. Not meaning to sound negative but I was really disappointed! I mean I was really disappointed. I don't know how else to put it but I was just really disappointed!

To think this is the best modern moviemakers can come up with to remember the man who united East and West.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Or is it just me?

Am I stupid for wishing I lived in a different generation?

The man who inspired every great name from Napoleon to J.R.R. Tolkien, who once united an island to the mainland, who scaled an unscalable mountain and spread his fame even to the mermaids who know his name...

Is this the best we can do? Barely 2 battle scenes and the rest a mixture of orgy and emotional claptrap. So many meaningful and important quotes left out, so many opportunities to show his goodness and kingliness blithely ignored!

Please tell me someone else out there feels the same way I do.

Very disappointed! :x
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by marcus »

Alita wrote:The man who inspired every great name from Napoleon to J.R.R. Tolkien, who once united an island to the mainland, who scaled an unscalable mountain and spread his fame even to the mermaids who know his name...
How did he inspire Tolkien?
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Post by aleksandros »

i think there is no point in discussing about that bad movie....

its clear that it was made by the point of view of one that knows nothing about Alexander.....who studied nothing on his own.....and only knows what most people have heard of Alexander........its full of historical mistakes, misconceptions and cliches.....

damn, you reminded it to me again....... now i am sad.
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Fiona
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Fiona »

Alita wrote: As these are the days of Alexander the Great's birthday, I thought it would be a good time to finally watch the 'Alexander' film. Not meaning to sound negative but I was really disappointed! I mean I was really disappointed. I don't know how else to put it but I was just really disappointed!
Yes, I've been celebrating Alexander's birthday too. I think watching the movie would be a good way to do that, so I'm sorry to hear you were disappointed.
Alita wrote: To think this is the best modern moviemakers can come up with to remember the man who united East and West.
Well, assuming that Oliver Stone is not among those present, I think it's only fair to point out that he had a clear vision and purpose, that he has set out in numerous interviews, and I think he succeeded on those terms. A film maker has to have a vision of what he is trying to achieve. He could not give us 'your' Alexander, or 'my' Alexander, he could only give us his own Alexander. What he was trying to do was show us the man, what he was like and more importantly, what made him like that. He was also keen to show that we are all constantly affected by what has gone before in our own lives, and how patterns repeat themselves, which is why he made so much use of flashbacks and avoided a linear narrative.
Alita wrote: The man who inspired every great name from Napoleon to J.R.R. Tolkien, who once united an island to the mainland, who scaled an unscalable mountain and spread his fame even to the mermaids who know his name...
Crumbs, Alita, delighted though I am to hear someone praising his inspiration, even I draw the line at mermaids....
Alita wrote: Is this the best we can do? Barely 2 battle scenes and the rest a mixture of orgy and emotional claptrap. So many meaningful and important quotes left out, so many opportunities to show his goodness and kingliness blithely ignored!
Oh yes, so much missed out - I'm sure everyone's got their own list of things they wish had been included. But again, Oliver Stone had thought long and hard about what he was doing, and many things were only missed out because there wasn't time or money to include them. It wasn't that he didn't know about them, or didn't care. Two battle scenes, yes, but very different, and showing something of the differences between the earlier and the later battles. Just consider the elephant battle, how cleverly he incorporated elements from so many different events - that he didn't have time to show separately - in one battle.
As for emotional claptrap, that depends on whether you would classify all emotional scenes as claptrap. If you would, then there isn't much I can say. But if you accept that Alexander could be very emotional - and I think there is plenty of evidence that he could - then such scenes have their place, don't you think? Relationships of all kinds were one of the key ways Oliver Stone wanted to show what Alexander was like.
He could have done it very differently - but if he had shown us all the battles and sieges in perfect detail, we would have been left thinking, yes, but what was he like as a man? The trouble with Alexander is, the story is just too big to get everything in, and it doesn't end happily, making it not really fit the usual story-telling mould.
It's thanks to Oliver Stone's persistence and vision that it was made at all, and I think it was an honest and brave attempt, with extraordinary devotion to historical accuracy. I would give great credit to the cast too, who, given the constraints of the script, did a wonderful job, and the set designers and everyone, including Vangelis for his inspirational score.
I don't know which of the three released versions you saw, but the Theatrical Version, IMHO, is an underrated masterpiece that has been unfairly maligned in the press by people who really didn't know enough to judge it, and one day, it will be re-assessed and given the honour it deserves.
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by amyntoros »

Fiona wrote:
Alita wrote: The man who inspired every great name from Napoleon to J.R.R. Tolkien, who once united an island to the mainland, who scaled an unscalable mountain and spread his fame even to the mermaids who know his name...
Crumbs, Alita, delighted though I am to hear someone praising his inspiration, even I draw the line at mermaids....
It's a tale from Greek folklore, Fiona. :)
A popular Greek legend has Alexander the Great's sister, Thessalonike, turn into a mermaid after she died.[1] She lived, it was said, in the Aegean and when sailors would encounter her, she would ask them only one question: "Is Alexander the king alive?" (Greek: Ζει ο βασιλιάς Αλέξανδρος; ), to which the correct answer would be "He lives and still rules" (Greek: Ζει και βασιλεύει). Any other answer would spur her into a rage, where she transformed into a Gorgon and meant doom for the ship and every sailor onboard.
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Semiramis »

Fiona,

I have to agree with you about the movie. I really loved it. Of course, I too have my list of things that should've been included. Siwa and Cheronea come to mind. But that movie is really long as is I guess. I thought Stone did quite well regarding the "uniter of East and West" theme without patronizing the viewer. And despite the inaccuracies (more like mergers and omissions I would say), some attention to detail was simply astonishing. Take the scene where Alexander's Bucephalus meets Porus' elephant. I don't know if its a coincidence but it looks exactly like the coins Alexander issued to commemorate his Indian campaign. Now, I don't think a horse not used the the smell of elephants would ever agree to get that close to one, but that's immaterial. I'm guessing Stone is really "into" Alexander and it was not simply a money-making venture for him. Although, at a cost of 200 million, I'm sure there was that aspect too. :) To put in the lunar eclipse before Gaugamela!? Come on. That's love. :) There were even publicity shots of Farrell sitting on Darius' throne which was too tall for him. Although, I wonder if that would've meant much to most people.

As for the "emotional" aspect, I've had this discussion before with a friend. The way I see it, Alexander really was a "mamma's boy" (my friend's words, not mine) in that he was very close to Olympias . There are reports of him crying or expressing emotion. And yes, he did love his best friend and Bagoas really did exist. At this stage my friend retorted "But can you see this guy conquering the world?". This really makes me wonder whether the debate is not so much about a "believable" portrayal of Alexander but the modern ideals of masculinity versus ancient ones. The ancients didn't see anything un-masculine about openly expressed emotions. In fact, most of those instances are dwelled on as evidence for Alexander's kind heart. But in the modern day, it clashes with predominant idea of how an alpha male should behave. I have to give Stone kudos for taking the risk of trying to represent "those times" when it comes to emotion and relationships. It would've been much simpler (and possibly more profitable) to have a "hero" closer to modern ideals.

And I agree with you about Vangelis too. Roxanne's Veil especially from the soundtrack is a memorable piece of music.
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Post by Phoebus »

You know, I think everyone here knows my thoughts about this movie. :wink:

All the same... Credit where credit is due. Vangelis' music hits the spot; and the sacrificial scene prior to Gaugamela (drums and all) is hair-raising.

Edit: also well done, IMHO, were Cleitus' murder scene and the announcement of the return home (kudos for the shot of Phillip's specter in the background). I would also include the scene for the mutiny, but the music here was oddly off... did anyone else thought that they tried to throw in "glorious" music right after he starts calling for people to be arrested? I thought that was a bit odd. :?
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Kronia Polla, Alexandros!

Post by ruthaki »

I'd forgotten this was the date so I too will watch the DVD tonight and remember...
I did agree totally with Stone's vision but it was too bad he couldn't contain all the other important scenes in the movie as some of my favorites were left out. I also disagreed in some cases with the casting but that is because I have my own vision of these characters.
Emotional? Yes, Alexander was notably emotional. And I agree that we tend to think in terms of today's 'masculinity' when it comes to these heros of ours. Don't forget that men having men as dear loving friends was quite acceptable in those days.

Anyway, interesting to see the movie discussion resurrected. Can't please everyone, that's for sure.
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Fiona »

amyntoros wrote:
It's a tale from Greek folklore, Fiona. :)


Oh, I know - love it, love the answer, 'King Alexander lives and reigns'. I just meant it seemed a little strange to include the mermaids, which presumably no-one actually believes, with two concrete evidences.
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Fiona »

Semiramis wrote:Fiona,

I have to agree with you about the movie. I really loved it. Of course, I too have my list of things that should've been included. Siwa and Cheronea come to mind. But that movie is really long as is I guess. I thought Stone did quite well regarding the "uniter of East and West" theme without patronizing the viewer. And despite the inaccuracies (more like mergers and omissions I would say), some attention to detail was simply astonishing. Take the scene where Alexander's Bucephalus meets Porus' elephant. I don't know if its a coincidence but it looks exactly like the coins Alexander issued to commemorate his Indian campaign. Now, I don't think a horse not used the the smell of elephants would ever agree to get that close to one, but that's immaterial. I'm guessing Stone is really "into" Alexander and it was not simply a money-making venture for him. Although, at a cost of 200 million, I'm sure there was that aspect too. :) To put in the lunar eclipse before Gaugamela!? Come on. That's love. :) There were even publicity shots of Farrell sitting on Darius' throne which was too tall for him. Although, I wonder if that would've meant much to most people.
I'm sure it was love. The eclipse, as you say - that above all. And the rain, too, on the day Alexander died. Ptolemy's Pella-style mosaics, Alexander's armour exactly like the Pompeii mosaic, the blue walls of Babylon - so many little details, and the care that went into getting those details right was awesome. Have you read RLF's 'The Making of Alexander'? You really get a sense there of how long it took even to get to the point where they were ready to start. Fifteen years of scripts and thinking. And reading, too - RLF was so impressed by how much OS had read, and yet was so ready to listen and learn, and get things right. As you say, there aren't mistakes so much as mergers and omissions, yet they tried to get in as much as they could. Troy was in one version, and the last thing that they reluctantly had to chop was Hephaistion's pyre. I don't think it was coincidence, the way the horse and the elephant were scripted to rear up facing each other.
Semiramis wrote: As for the "emotional" aspect, I've had this discussion before with a friend. The way I see it, Alexander really was a "mamma's boy" (my friend's words, not mine) in that he was very close to Olympias . There are reports of him crying or expressing emotion. And yes, he did love his best friend and Bagoas really did exist. At this stage my friend retorted "But can you see this guy conquering the world?". This really makes me wonder whether the debate is not so much about a "believable" portrayal of Alexander but the modern ideals of masculinity versus ancient ones. The ancients didn't see anything un-masculine about openly expressed emotions. In fact, most of those instances are dwelled on as evidence for Alexander's kind heart. But in the modern day, it clashes with predominant idea of how an alpha male should behave. I have to give Stone kudos for taking the risk of trying to represent "those times" when it comes to emotion and relationships. It would've been much simpler (and possibly more profitable) to have a "hero" closer to modern ideals.
I think this is a really good point. Yes, he was emotional, and yes, he conquered the world, and if people have trouble believing both, then it says a lot about their own preconceived ideas of what Alexander must have been like. Thanks for this story about the conversation with your friend because I think it brings out something valuable.
Semiramis wrote: And I agree with you about Vangelis too. Roxanne's Veil especially from the soundtrack is a memorable piece of music.
Oh, it's good to hear you say that! 'Titans' is my favourite, but I do love them all. Wish the piece played at the mutiny speech had been included on the CD.
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Post by Fiona »

Phoebus wrote:You know, I think everyone here knows my thoughts about this movie. :wink:

All the same... Credit where credit is due. Vangelis' music hits the spot; and the sacrificial scene prior to Gaugamela (drums and all) is hair-raising.

Edit: also well done, IMHO, were Cleitus' murder scene and the announcement of the return home (kudos for the shot of Phillip's specter in the background). I would also include the scene for the mutiny, but the music here was oddly off... did anyone else thought that they tried to throw in "glorious" music right after he starts calling for people to be arrested? I thought that was a bit odd. :?
I know the bit you mean, Phoebus - I think it's just meant to be dramatic, but it doesn't quite work, does it? There's the really 'glorious' music when Alexander is working up to saying, "And as the years decline, and the memories fade, it will always be remembered, that you left your king in Asia", and then the trouble starts, and the music doesn't change quickly enough.
Glad to know you like the music too, though. Very spine-chilling, the sacrifice scene.
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Re: Kronia Polla, Alexandros!

Post by Fiona »

ruthaki wrote:I'd forgotten this was the date so I too will watch the DVD tonight and remember...
I did agree totally with Stone's vision but it was too bad he couldn't contain all the other important scenes in the movie as some of my favorites were left out. I also disagreed in some cases with the casting but that is because I have my own vision of these characters.
Emotional? Yes, Alexander was notably emotional. And I agree that we tend to think in terms of today's 'masculinity' when it comes to these heros of ours. Don't forget that men having men as dear loving friends was quite acceptable in those days.

Anyway, interesting to see the movie discussion resurrected. Can't please everyone, that's for sure.
I guess it will keep coming up whenever someone sees it for the first time - hope Alita comes back on to talk about it some more.
So, if you could have had just one more scene in, anything you liked, what would you choose?
I think I'd ask for Troy.
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Re: Celebrating Alexander's Birthday

Post by Semiramis »

Fiona wrote:I'm sure it was love. The eclipse, as you say - that above all. And the rain, too, on the day Alexander died. Ptolemy's Pella-style mosaics, Alexander's armour exactly like the Pompeii mosaic, the blue walls of Babylon - so many little details, and the care that went into getting those details right was awesome. Have you read RLF's 'The Making of Alexander'? You really get a sense there of how long it took even to get to the point where they were ready to start. Fifteen years of scripts and thinking. And reading, too - RLF was so impressed by how much OS had read, and yet was so ready to listen and learn, and get things right. As you say, there aren't mistakes so much as mergers and omissions, yet they tried to get in as much as they could. Troy was in one version, and the last thing that they reluctantly had to chop was Hephaistion's pyre. I don't think it was coincidence, the way the horse and the elephant were scripted to rear up facing each other.
I haven't read RLF's "Making of Alexander". If it comes with pictures of Jared Leto, I'm in! :) FIFTEEN years in the making!?!?! I can believe it thought... The Ishtar Gate has been reconstructed in the Berlin Museum and it seems Stone paid attention. I saw a small part of the real thing in the Louvre a while ago. Was it reported that it was raining the day Alexander died? As for the missing scenes, with Genghis Khan, they're actually making a trilogy of films. I think that makes more sense if you're trying to cover a larger than life character, but I know so few people who liked the movie as is...
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Re: Kronia Polla, Alexandros!

Post by Phoebus »

Fiona wrote: So, if you could have had just one more scene in, anything you liked, what would you choose?
I think I'd ask for Troy.
Fiona
I can't pick... it'd have to be one of these three:

1. Egypt/the Oracle
2. The siege of Tyre (can you imagine the shots of the city's tall walls and the amazing siege works used to get over them?)
3. Chaeronea... if only because I think Val Kilmer's Phillip deserves more time!
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Alexcander (the movie)

Post by ruthaki »

Yes, definitely they should have had Chaironia as that was Alexander's first big moment in battle. And I agree with the other two scenes but I also think they should have made more out of the battle of Hydaspes.
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