300

[Paralus]

What ruler would not want to punish those who had behaved aggressively against him and his possessions?

Not to mention the increasing clashing of commercial spheres of influence. Athens had - and continued to have - a large and, to Persia, rather unhealthy interest in northern Anatolian and Phoenician "business routes" (for lack of a better description). Athens growing activities in the Aegean will not have passed unnoticed. One needs only to follow the caches of Attic pottery to see where her interests ran.

Indeed, it was Delian League post war that enabled Athens to take a stranglehold on the Black Sea corn routes and severely curtail or compete with Phoenician interests. And, once the eastern Aegean was "secured" what was next? That supermarket of the ancient world that exacted an ongoing toll on Persian resources via regular invasions, Egypt. Athens, like Persia occasionally, found this the province too far and suffered its calamitous operation "Market Garden" in the 450s.

A practice run for Sicily in 415-13.

[marcus]

That being said, i repeat for once more that i dont say that everything came out of Greece. But the characterizations you made, about Greeks being copiers and all that are just unfaire, and wrong.

I do think that it's unfair for people to say that the Greeks were "copiers". However, it is clear from the archaic styles of art that in the Archaic period there was a lot of shared artistic knowledge going on, and Greek art does appear to have been influenced by what was going on in Egypt and the Near East - largely thanks to the spread of Greek culture to the Ionian seaboard and the increased contacts there.

I would defy anyone to call the artists of the heyday of Greek scupture copyists - surely no-one would be so unjust towards Praxiteles?

At the same time, however, it would be wrong to suggest that the Greeks developed entirely without influences from outside (which I know you're not suggesting, Efstathios).

ATB

[Efstathios]

and it was, of course, almost entirely thanks to the Muslims that we in the "West" have been able to use the knowledge of the ancient Greeks for the furtherance of our own civilisation

Excuse me Marcus, but in which event are you reffering to? As i remeber it was the Arabs that used the scrolls from the library of Alexandria, those that were left from the previous burnings that is, as fuel for fire.

Maybe some muslims were not as savage though and did indeed preserve some knowledge. But dont also forget that a large part of the ancient knowldge was preserved in Christian monasteries, like that in Sinah. The monks there just copied the ancient scrolls, preserving them in the libraries.

[Efstathios]

Ok we are all writting at the same time here. Every time i post you or Paralus have left a new post

At the same time, however, it would be wrong to suggest that the Greeks developed entirely without influences from outside (which I know you're not suggesting, Efstathios)

Indeed, i am not suggesting that.

I am now looking for information about Herodotus being half Persian. Will post it as soon as i find it.

Michael: When i reffered to Macedonia i though i also wrote that it was by the time of Philip II and afterwards.

[marcus]

Excuse me Marcus, but in which event are you reffering to? As i remember it was the Arabs that used the scrolls from the library of Alexandria, those that were left from the previous burnings that is, as fuel for fire.

Because the Muslims did preserve many of the works that otherwise might have been forgotten in the west, which then filtered back to the West during the period of the Crusades.

Of course, that isn't to say that many works would not have filtered through eventually, but we have the Muslims to thank for preserving much of what might otherwise have been lost (except, of course, for that which they burned to keep warm, as you rightly say. Then again, I didn't say that they purposefully set out to save and preserve everything, just that much more would have been lost had they not been so civilised and respectful of the work). If I recall correctly, until relatively late we didn't have Aristotle's works in the West, merely indications of what he wrote about from later writers whose works were preserved in the West - just as an example.

ATB

[marcus]

Ok we are all writting at the same time here. Every time i post you or Paralus have left a new post

Yeah, fun, isn't it?

If you can give me more on the Herodotus thing I'll be grateful - that will be a good one to store away for future use!

ATB

[marcus]

Not to mention the increasing clashing of commercial spheres of influence. Athens had - and continued to have - a large and, to Persia, rather unhealthy interest in northern Anatolian and Phoenician "business routes" (for lack of a better description). Athens growing activities in the Aegean will not have passed unnoticed. One needs only to follow the caches of Attic pottery to see where her interests ran.

Which is, of course, why the Athenians got involved in trying to "liberate" the Ionians in the first place - not because they had a great desire to free those who shared so much of their culture and language, but because it would be easier to control the grain routes if they had some friendly, liberated, Greek-speaking cities lining the areas of the coast where the Persians/Phoenicians would have to park their fleet if they were to contest Athens' route to the Black Sea.

ATB, with a dash of devil's advocacy

[Efstathios]

Ok, i cant find anything about Herodotus, which suggests that i might be mistaken on this. Maybe i mistook him for someone else. But i remember reading in a book recently about someone that was half persian, and i thought it was Herodotus. Anyway.

[Efstathios]

Which is, of course, why the Athenians got involved in trying to "liberate" the Ionians in the first place - not because they had a great desire to free those who shared so much of their culture and language, but because it would be easier to control the grain routes if they had some friendly, liberated, Greek-speaking cities lining the areas of the coast where the Persians/Phoenicians would have to park their fleet if they were to contest Athens' route to the Black Sea.

True that, But the truth may be somewhere in the middle. There were after all those that saw this thing with a sentimental approach. But obviously the decision was based in interests.

[Paralus]

Michael: When i reffered to Macedonia i though i also wrote that it was by the time of Philip II and afterwards.

That sidesteps the question Stathi. What written evidence (poetry, comedies, tradgedies and histories) do we have of the Macedonian culture from say Alexander I onwards?

And, even should we use Philip's court as an example, how many Macedonians wrote the above? Aside from Marsayas Macedon we have to wait untli Alexander's Anabasis before his nobility began writing - essentially - military travelogues. The only other possible candidate is Parmemio's memoir about the Illyrian campaign (which, if it existed, has not survived).

The answer is nil. To address it, a seemingly endless procession of Greeks were invited - especially by monarchs from Archelaus on - to bring such culture and philosophy to court. Note: to court, not to the Macedones. Socrates demurred, not wanting to be in a position of receiveing hospitality he could not possibly ever return.

The ordinary Macedones did not produce an Herodotus or an Aristophanes. The entire nature of the society did not favour such. The king and his nobility was all. Indeed, the monarchy seemingly committed most of its records to wooden tablets. They, evidently, have not survived. Good thing the Persians used clay tablets.

On that basis and their Persian like love of unmixed wine, Macedonian culture is as backward as Persian. No wonder the city state Greeks thought them barbaroi. No wonder Alexander liked what he saw in the East.

[smittysmitty]

I think people need to keep this discussion in some sort of chronological order. Seems to be jumping too and frow between the centuries and in some cases millenium in order to make a point.

I believe the point of discussion was the Greco-Persian wars and just how'advanced' the mainland Greeks were at this period of time. And I will stick by my original post, that Greece at this time was a rather backward region in comparison to what was going on everywhere.

Forget 'Classical Athens' and its architecture, sculpture, literature, philosophy etc - this would not reach its hey day for another couple of generations after the war.

The question is from where was such inspiration drawn? perhaps thats a bit easier to understand?

Maybe!


'I do think that it's unfair for people to say that the Greeks were "copiers". However, it is clear from the archaic styles of art that in the Archaic period there was a lot of shared artistic knowledge going on, and Greek art does appear to have been influenced by what was going on in Egypt and the Near East - largely thanks to the spread of Greek culture to the Ionian seaboard and the increased contacts there.'

Well I don't know how much Greek culture was spread to Anatolia, obviously they must have had some influence - but seems odd it didn't spread in it's place of origin until after the Greco-Persian wars?

'I would defy anyone to call the artists of the heyday of Greek scupture copyists - surely no-one would be so unjust towards Praxiteles? '

No not at all, but he did his work around a century later than the time period in question. A century of refinement. I don't have a problem with that at all.

cheers!

p.s

lol, see what happens when you get the day off from work. You get to visit the pothos site, enter into a discussion, and end up with a potentially heated argument. Only kidding about the argument. The shame of it all is that it's back to work this evening and the grind continues

[rjones2818]

On the page I'm looking at, it says that The Persians was written in 470 bc. That would be nine years after Plataea (probably 8.5 if it were performed in 470). It is my understanding that Aeschylus fought at Salamis, so at least some of the greatness of classical Athens was being formed at that time, if not already reasonably well started.

Here's the link:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Course ... cpers.html

[Efstathios]

The ordinary Macedones did not produce an Herodotus or an Aristophanes.

Michael, you seem to be forgetting about Aristotle of Stageira and Eurippedes, who were both ordinary Macedonians. And some others as well. But what happened was that obviously they chose to go to the place that their ideas would me mostly recongnised, in Athens. The place where most of the great minds wanted to go to, from all over Greece. Macedonia was not a fertile ground for their work to flourish, because it was a Kingdom.

[Paralus]

We're streching credulity now Stathi.

Euripides died whilst at the court of Archelaeus in around 407/6. He had - it is generally believed - been invited there by the king, the only other posit being that he took himself there in exile from Athens. The legend is that he was born on Salamis.

Aristotle of Stageira - a city of the Greek Khalkididki - was at court also by invitation.

One might as well suggest Thucydides was Macedonian. He spent time in exile there too.

Keep searching mate.

[smittysmitty]

rjones2818 said;


'It is my understanding that Aeschylus fought at Salamis, so at least some of the greatness of classical Athens was being formed at that time, if not already reasonably well started.'


No one is denying this, indeed there were great works written by Greeks well before this period. But! For the most part these works were written by Greeks living outside of mainland Greece.

The emergence of Greece's or perhaps more appropriately Athens' classical age did not occur over night; Generations of Greeks living abroad whether it be in the East or the West had contributed enormously toward the future development of mainland Greece. Indeed, the most marvelous Greek works of architecture, literature, art, science, etc. prior to the Persian wars were to be found outside of mainland Greece. So yes, it is not surprising to find a rapid development in these areas on the mainland after the wars.

It is quite a remarkable phenomena don't you think - that it all happens away from home first, then, in time reaches home?

Interesting I reckon.


Cheers!