Issues with Arrian?

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:
* The Greek/Macedonian debate
* Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones ;-)
* Foul or inappropriate language

Moderator: pothos moderators

Post Reply
Nicator
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Issues with Arrian?

Post by Nicator »

Hello all,
Selincourt's Arrian states: pg. 49 bottom...
"He then made for the territory of the Agrianes and Paeones, where a message reached him that Cleitus, the son of Bardylis, was in revolt, and had been joined by Glaucias, the prince of the Taulantians, and further..." pg. 50 bottom...
"The town (Pelium) was ringed with commanding heights, thickly wooded, which were held by Cleitus' troops, who were thus enabled, in the event of an assault, to attack the Macedonian forces from every side. Glaucias, the King of the Taulantians, had not yet come upon the scene."My question are:1. What tribe was Cleitus associated with?
2. Whose rule were they revolting from (Macedonians?)?
3. Was there a King Glaucias and a Prince Glaucias, or are these one and the same?
4. Did the troops under Cleitus split with some going into the hills and the rest into the fortress town?Some intersting points about this section:1. "Alexander proposed to establish a blockade; but on the following day Glaucias appeared with a large force. As a result of this Alexander abandoned his project of taking the town; for his own force was comparatively small..." Where was the rest of the Macedonian army?2. "...Thereupon Alexander called on his men to raise the war cry and clashing their spears upon their shields, with the rusult that the din was altogether too much for the Taulantians, who hastily withdrew to the town."If the Macedonians were trapped between the walls and hills, it seems a little strange that the Taulantians would be able to get by them and into the town? Unless the Taulantians came out of the fortress to view the maneuvers, and Alexander's troops were a suitable distance from the fortress to allow this.3. "Alexander with the Companions then occupied the hill, sent for the Agrianes and archers - a force of some 2,000 men - and ordered the Guards to cross the river, followed by the other Macedonian units, and, on reaching the further side, to form up towards the left in order to present a solid front to the enemy immediately (after) they were across the river." "Seeing the Macedonian troops crossing the river, the natives moved down from the high ground with the intention of falling upon Alexander's party which would form the rear of the army as it withdrew; and Alexander countered by a rapid sally of his own, while the main body of his infantry, coming to the attack through the river, raised the war-cry.Was the main
Later Nicator

Thus, rain sodden and soaked, under darkness cloaked,
Alexander began, his grand plan, invoked...

The Epic of Alexander
Nicator
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by Nicator »

cont'd...3. "Alexander with the Companions then occupied the hill, sent for the Agrianes and archers - a force of some 2,000 men - and ordered the Guards to cross the river, followed by the other Macedonian units, and, on reaching the further side, to form up towards the left in order to present a solid front to the enemy immediately (after) they were across the river." "Seeing the Macedonian troops crossing the river, the natives moved down from the high ground with the intention of falling upon Alexander's party which would form the rear of the army as it withdrew; and Alexander countered by a rapid sally of his own, while the main body of his infantry, coming to the attack through the river, raised the war-cry.Was the main body already across the river, and rushed back to aid the rear? It's possible, but it seems like it would have created more confusion for the Macedonians than danger for the enemy. Interesting indeed!
later Nicator
Later Nicator

Thus, rain sodden and soaked, under darkness cloaked,
Alexander began, his grand plan, invoked...

The Epic of Alexander
aen
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:31 am

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by aen »

Nicator, Cleitus son of Bardylis was ruler of the Dardanian Illyrians, a pretty rough bunch. Yes, they were rebelling from Macedonian rule (perhaps GÇÿhegemonyGÇÖ would be more accurate). There had always been friction between the two peoples. When Philip came to the helm in 59/60, his brother, Perdicass, and four thousand of MacedoniaGÇÖs finest had been slaughtered in battle by Bardylis. PhilipGÇÖs response on coming to power was to offer an alliance marriage to BardylisGÇÖ daughter, Audata. A little over a year later, however, he abandoned pretences at diplomacy, and settled things with his new model army and a successful military campaign, the conclusion of which saw Bardylis slain. The dead kingGÇÖs successor was Cleitus, his son. Although he too was troublesome, Philip contained any problems he posed, and the Dardanians (albeit uneasily) knuckled under, as large sections of the Illyrian/Macedonian frontier were resettled and repopulated as Philip chose. The Taulantians were also an Illyrian tribe. They were sucker punched by Parmenion while Philip was busy at Potidaea in 56. Their king at that time was one Grabos. We hear of the victory anecdotally in those reports of Philip receiving three pieces of good news in one day: the triumph of his nag/chariot at the Hippos Kellis in Olympia; the birth of his son, Alexander; and ParmenionGÇÖs aforementioned victories in the north. Glaucias, presumably, was a later successor to Grabos. And, yes, the prince Glaucias and king Glaucias are undoubtedly the same individual.CleitusGÇÖ forces do seem initially to have been staggered around the heights flanking Pelion and within the fortress proper. It makes for sound tactical sense. Allowing Alexander a foothold on any promontory overlooking the fortress would have been very silly. Why was this stronghold so important to the Illyrians? It was only eighty miles from Pella, and if held would scupper AlexanderGÇÖs ambitions completely. GÇÿWhere was the rest of the army?GÇÖ Remember that immediately after the fracas around Pelion, Alexander and co practically sprinted down to Thebes. Upon their incredibly prompt arrival, weGÇÖre told the astonished Thebans assumed they were either the home army under Antipater or possibly sections under Alexander of Lynkestia. This would seem to suggest that at least one chunk of the homeland force was with Antipater, and PERHAPS others were elsewhere. For what itGÇÖs worth, there were also substantial numbers slogging away under Parmenion on the
aen
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:31 am

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by aen »

For what itGÇÖs worth, there were also substantial numbers slogging away under Parmenion on the far side of the Hellespont. There is also the more straightforward possibility that the Macedonians were outnumbered because there were, quite simply, very large numbers of Illyrians in the sector.Vis-+á-vis Taulantian escapees to Pelion. Alexander was pinned in front, rear, and in flank. The drill display and charge dispersed flanking enemy, but we understand that to his rear a Taulantian force stayed put. Subsequently these were dispersed by cavalry. Point being, those in rear did not get past him. Those in flank could appoint themselves to the fortress because Alexander wasnGÇÖt hard on it himself. It seems to me his plan was not to engage to front or flank if avoidable, but to isolate the rear enemy from their lines. He could then sweep them aside immediately prior to clearing his Macedonians from the sector. The withdrawal. Interestingly, when the Taulantians pressurised the rearguard they came down from the hills to do so - evidence that not all had fled to the cosy confines of Pelion in the vale below. Most of AlexanderGÇÖs foot was across the river at this stage, although sections of the phalanx (fresh from their theatrical display) turned in formation as if to re-cross. This was another display for the demoralised benefit of the Taulantians, not a rush to engage. It was, according to Arrian, bolstered with a sustained barrage of artillery from machines, and archers stood midstream unleashing volleys. IGÇÖd imagine the volleys were directed out over the heads of the rearguard to act as a disincentive to the Illyrians rather than a direct counter attack. It seems few if any of GlauciasGÇÖ people fancied the idea of traversing the GÇÿflight pathGÇÖ in order to get to grips with heavily backed up Macedonian units, some of which appeared happy to return if provoked. As to the confusion aspect: I personally think the Macedonians were so highly drilled (witness the phalanx display of shortly before) that it was all pretty straightforward stuff to them.Pity our sources donGÇÖt elaborate on these campaigns a bit more. They sound to me as though they were very tricky. And they probably formed the crucible in which Alexander cemented the armyGÇÿs confidence in him.Laters. A.
Nicator
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by Nicator »

...an excellent comentary, thanks!
Nicator
Later Nicator

Thus, rain sodden and soaked, under darkness cloaked,
Alexander began, his grand plan, invoked...

The Epic of Alexander
aen
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:31 am

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by aen »

My pleasure,It's always good to be compelled to re-examine the sources. Often you find there are nuggets and snippets that you've forgotten. It's its own reward.
Nicator
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by Nicator »

Where did the Illerian horseman hail from which accompanied Philip and later Alexander into Asia?
Nicator
Later Nicator

Thus, rain sodden and soaked, under darkness cloaked,
Alexander began, his grand plan, invoked...

The Epic of Alexander
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by agesilaos »

There is an interesting article by Hammond on this campaign with excellent reference to the topography GÇÿAlexanderGÇÖs Campaign in IllyriaGÇÖ JHS 94 (1974) pp77f of equal interest is a papyrus fragment, recovered from the bindings of a Hellenistic mummy. This appears to be a fragment of a commentary upon this very campaign cf GÇÿA Papyrus Commentary on AlexanderGÇÖs Balkan CampaignGÇÖ GRBS 28 pp331-347.Therein we find that a sizable portion of the army had been assigned border duties probably under Corragos one of the Friends and also that Philotas had been sent on a separate mission, though he may have rejoined the army by the action at Pelion, the fragmentary nature of the source doesnGÇÖt allow any certainty.Alexander crossed with Illyrian infantry but no cavalry according to Diodoros, however the Paeonians are described as both Thracian and Illyrian in our sources and they may be who is intended.It is also interesting to note that throughout this narrative Arrian refers to the Macedonian phalanx as 'hoplites', which would suggest a Greek source, Kallisthenes, perhaps, yet Ptolemy is explicitly cited at I 2 vii.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
aen
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:31 am

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by aen »

Philotas was indeed back in train by the time of Pelion. The foraging party that comes close to grief at the hands of Glaucias' units, is reported as under Philotas' command.I'm curious. What else do we know of Corragos?
Nicator
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by Nicator »

Hello Karl,
You're quite right...it was the Paeonians. Where is Thessaly?
Nicator
Later Nicator

Thus, rain sodden and soaked, under darkness cloaked,
Alexander began, his grand plan, invoked...

The Epic of Alexander
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: Issues with Arrian?

Post by agesilaos »

Thessally is the territory south of Macedonia and north of Boeotia, it was in a similar state of development as Macedonia only it was not united under a king though occaisionally a strong ruler held the country together; Iason of Phalerum was a sort of proto-Philip but was assassinated before he could acheive much.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Post Reply