Queries on the Iliad.

[Nicator]

Hello Dean,If I'm not mistaken, archaeologists have discovered weaponry and armaments which match the descriptions given in the Illiad on the site of Troy. Also, that the Troy given in the Illiad is built upon the remains of several older cities, and it is itself buried beneath several newer cities. There were seven altogether. I can't remember exactly which layer represents Troy of the Illiad (number four I think?). When the original excavations were done the archaeologist in charge of the dig (anybody know his name?) took an unorthodox method and dug a line through the middle of the hill. Thus, damaging much of the site.As a side note, there is some new research being done on Homers work, which indicates that it may not be entirely original...but possibly, a plagiarism of some earlier work done in Babylon.
later Nicator

[jan]

Hello Dean, Here are a few examples from O'Brien's book. Page 24.He then called it Alexandropolis in imitation of a similar situation two years earlier when his father had founded Philippolis in Thrace. This was the first city Alexander named after himself, and it would not be the last. I...shall lie still
when I am dead Now I must win excellent glory
(il. 18. 121)Page 25. Nonetheless, it was Philip's son and the Companion Cavalry who delivered the coup de grace at chaeronea by annihilating the Sacred Band. Alexander, at 18 years of age, was a hero. winning for my own self great glory
and
for
my
father
(Il. 6.446)Page 173. I t was Alexander himself who mounted the wall first, in order to shame his men into a more spirited attack. may that man
who this day
wilfully hangs back
from the fighting
never win home again...
but stay here
and be made dogs' delight
for their feasting
(Il. 13.232-4The entire book is written in this form, showing events tied into excerpts from the Iliad and another book as well. It is quite interesting in its assertion.You are most welcome.Jan

[dean]

Hello, I was just cross referencing different sources regarding the Trojan war. In Ovid's "Metamorphosis", twelfth book (what a coincidence) in the opening paragraph we are told that the revenge on the Trojan town would have been immediate if the sea had not been so tempestuous. So it appears that there were several reasons why the Achaians couldn't immediately lay siege to Troy. Homer's Iliad was created, enjoyed and passed down to future generations by oral tradition (and then linear B finally deciphered by Michael Ventris) I understand that due to the way the Iliad was transmitted it could easily have undergone revision or even censoring.

For example, given the alarmingly brutal nature of the Iliad, it may have been possible that Achilleus, after spearing his adversary in the neck, actually dragged him around Troy while initially still alive and that this was subsequently substituted for the softer and less disturbing crime of dragging only his corpse. This is just a bit of pure speculation but maybe Curtius could have been aware of the still uncensored Iliad(if this indeed were the case). Ergo, we find Alexander at Gaza emulating Achilleus in the original version of the Iliad, dragging Batis while still alive.Best wishes,
Dean.P.S. I don't know about you but I have to confess that for me, The Iliad is begging a similar treatment to that Romeo and Juliet by Shakespeare. I.E. the whole story being transposed onto a more contemporary background while still retaining its "quintessence".

[marcus]

That'll be Heinrich Schliemann, who also did the original excavations at Mycenae.Unfortunately, one finds that most early archaeologists took the approach of cutting right through the middle of a site, which made it quite easy for them to identify the different layers, but did hug amounts of initial damage. It's was Woolley did at Ur and various other places, too.Interesting story about Schliemann, incidentally. He was determined to marry a Greek woman, he was so fanatical about Homer. He put an advertisement in the Greek newspapers, basically asking for willing young ladies to come forward for 'interview'. One of his "required" skills in his future wife was her ability to recite the entire Iliad... which he eventual choice was apparently able to do. It was "pure chance" that she happened to be, purportedly, the most beautiful woman in Greece.All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

... and there're pictures of her actualy wearing the gold jewelry that was found at Ilion.But he didn't put an advertisement in the papers to find a bride :-)He asked his Greek tutor (Theokletos Vimpos) for recommendations. His requirements were that she be young, Greek, an orphan and most importantly, a fan of Homer. His friend recommended his niece, Sophia who was complying to the qualifications!The two of them matched well together. They were very enthousistic but also very bad archeologists! I believe that they did more destruction than research...

[marcus]

Ah, well I had obviously mis-remembered some of the details - but the general idea was there.Still, to be fair, he wasn't particularly "worse" than any other archaeologists of the time. It's just a shame that he destroyed so much of what was probably such an important site.Anyway, it pales into insignificance when you see the mess Evans made of Knossos! Now, there was a prime example of making the archaeology say what you *wanted* it to say... :-)All the bestMarcus

[aen]

Dean,I recall encountering a snippet somewhere that further explained the Batis incident; namely that in Thessaly the practice of towing a corpse or live miscreant behind horses was, even in Alexander's time, not unusual. Apparently there may well have been some sort of ritualistic signifigance to the gesture - for Thessalians at least.As for the moment of Hector's demise (pre or during the chariot ordeal); I've always theorised that in its earliest forms the Iliad would have had Achilles lashing him to the frame while still alive.Reason: there has been so much spectacularly vivid, violent carnage throughout the poem that Homer (whoever he was/they were) would have saved up something particularly unpleasant for the climactic death towards the end. As it reads now, Hector's demise is not much different from any one of the others. In fact, it's almost unremarkable accept for the final indignity the Trojan suffers of being unable to finish his last sentence.I wonder if it mightn't have been different in the earliest forms.

[yiannis]

Well, Achilles was from Thessaly after all.

[marcus]

Was he? I always thought that Achilles was from Aegina - hence the fact that he was leading the Myrmidons.All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

His grandfather was the king of Aegina. His father was king of Phthia (modern day Phthiotis) in Thessaly.
That is where Achilles was also educated, by the centaur Chiron on mount Pelion (an excellent vacation spot!).

[marcus]

Ah... I had assumed that Peleus was also the big boss on Aegina. Or was he that as well as being king of Thessaly? I knew Achilles was educated on Mount Pelion, but as that was where Chiron was based, in itself it wouldn't be enough to make Achilles a Thessalian!All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

Peleus was the king of Phthia that's for sure but I don't know if he had anything yet to do with Aegina. I think not. Achilles was born in Phthia.(It just struck me that the name of mount Pelion is -obviously- deriving from Peleus...)

[marcus]

Or is it the other way round - that Peleus derives from Pelion? :-)I'm going to check this out, because Peleus must have had some connection with Aegina, if Achilles led the Myrmidons to Troy. As you can probably tell, the Iliad is not my specialist subject! :-)All the bestMarcus

[susan]

Yes - shades of Frazer's Golden Bough, which I've always found particularly nasty. Human sacrifice was still going on in Alexander's day - on one of his early campaigns north of Macedonia, children were sacrificed by his enemies to try to avert his victory, and I suspect Macedonians had only recently emerged from such times.Susan

[yiannis]

I just made a swirf research:AeacusKing of the island Aegina whose father was Zeus and his mother the seanymph Aegina. Zeus jealous wife Hera was so angered by their relationship that she took revenge by sending a plague to the island, killing almost everyone on it. Aeacus then asked his father to turn ants to people so that his island would be populated again, and so Zeus made the myrmidons - the ant people, who were to be the fierces warriors in Greece.Aeachus had three sons: Phocos, Telemon and Peleus. Phocos was the most loved son, and in a fit of jealousy his brothers killed him. Telemon fled to Salamis, and Peleus to Thessaly. They each had a hero son: Telemon Ajax and Peleus Achilles. When Aeachus died he became one of the three judges of the underworld, since he had been such a righteous king. In this link you'll find the story as it is relayed to us in Euripides tragedy "Iphigenia At Aulis". Just search for "Aegina":
http://www.mll.gr/Kat/History/Txt/Cl/Iphigenia.htm
(The rest of the text is great too!)