"I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

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system1988
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"I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by system1988 »

In 2011 there was a discussion in the forum on the case of L.Soulvatzi who, in the 90’s performed an excavation by paying the expenses on her own, on an area located at the Sioua Egyptian oasis. She then announced that she had found Alexander the Great’s tomb. Agesilaos gave very informative answers to the questions of the forum’s members. On the link containing the answers (which I cannot find) it is mentioned that the Egyptians, most of them archaeologists, were claiming that Souvaltzi had simply “discovered” a temple which had already been discovered long ago.

In short, Souvaltzi was intensely questioned at a global level and was accused of many things, such as her behavior, being an amateur, plotting and being a political opportunist etc
Of course, for the facts to be fully comprehended, one must browse through the publications of the archaeologists who first found the temple and learn to which god it was dedicated to, its dating etc (lucky be those who know Arabic and can read the original texts)

I had the chance to read in haste the book ‘ Διόνυσος και Αλέξανδρος – το κοινό όραμα’ (Alexander and Dionysus – the common vision), a greek-only publication I believe.
The book is “flaky” as far as the photographic part is concerned there are title-less photos, title without photos, unidentified ancient monuments, tombs shown without coherence and cohesion etc.
In the end there is a photo of the excavated tomb (face), and a few of its virtual representations.
Whatever follows is the Souvaltzi’s approach. The data are shown without ande order and they are the ones that peaked my interest.
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Ptolemy’s loyal soldiers, dressed as Arabs caravan salesmen took only the corpse and covered it with various cloths to hid he intense smell from the oils and perfumes and placed it inside their trade goods. In order to not be spotted by Perdikka’s soldiers they traveled only at night. It took them four months to reach the Sioua oasis where Ptolemy had built the tomb.

They passed by five oasis until they reached the one they wanted. All these neighboring oasis do not have neither Egyptian nor Ververian names but instead altered by times Greek ones. For example there is El Maraki oasis. It comes from the word “μειράκιο” (mirakio) because Alexander was too young when he began his campaign and that had made a great impression. Another one is called Τιμοίρια (Timoiria) and the word comes from the word “μοίρα” (moira) which in Greek means “fate”. There is also a forest that is called by the locals “Alexander’s forest” because it was there that the soldiers that carried his body rested before reaching the Sioua oasis.

Alexander has many similarities to the god Dionysus. One of them is that both are depicted wearing women clothes- Alexander however just mimicked the god (after all he had participated in the mysteries of Dionysus)

The emperor Traianos visited the tomb. There is an inscription that proves and it bears an engraved ivy symbol, a sign of mutual recognizing between members of the Dionysus mysteries participants. Emperor Andrianos also visited the tomb. There is an inscription of a Macedonian officer, Laonikeios (?) who visited the tomb and expresses his marvel. We have found this name in the history books, meaning that he indeed was an officer of Alexander.
Lastly there is an inscription of Ptolemy himself that makes a reference.
“I carried myself the light like a small shield body of his (towards the tomb). I am the last survivor, I am the keeper and what I did, I did so for him”

Having mentioned all these things by Souvaltzi (I didn’t buy the book so this is all I remember) here are a few of my own thoughts:

1) It’s a shame that we don’t have any contact with an Egyptian archaeologist of historian for the excavated temple’s on Memphis importance and especially for the oasis importance on Alexander’s history as well as his descendants. It is not impossible for worship of Alexander to have emerged in that area, during the Ptolemy dynasty, just from the memory of Alexander visiting temple of Ammon Zeus alone. From what the evidence is telling us there are archaeological remnants in almost all of the oasis.

2) It’s a shame the we don’t know the opinion of Egyptian/ Arabs linguists as far as the greek names of the oasis are concerned. If this is valid then it is a worthwhile historical testimony.

3) It’s a shame that we don’t know something more about the aforementioned inscriptions.

4) It’s a shame that the relationship of Alexander to the god Dionysus has not been researched extensively as far as I know.

5) And what happened to the half-excavated monument? It is said to be guarded. Has its revealing been on the Egyptian authorities’s agenda? Even if it belongs as said to some Macedonian officer and it is a grave, not a temple, it would be very interesting to know of the hypotheses concerning the identity of its owner (you have to be a… VIP in order to have a 525 square meter tomb surrounded by a 12.000 s.m landholding on the general area!)

6) TIt would be so valuable if we had a greater touch with Hellenistic Egypt from the forum’s part !
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agesilaos
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by agesilaos »

This was the link I posted then

http://archive.archaeology.org/online/f ... /tomb.html

The thread was 'Alexander's tomb and the biggest archaiological concealment.' by Efstathios.
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hiphys
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by hiphys »

Hi system1988!

As far as I know there is a major study on the connection between Alexander and Dionysus:
P.Goukowsky,
Essai sur les origines du mythe d'Alexandre et Dionysos, (Les Belles Lettres) Paris 1981.

See also P.A. Brunt,
Arrian,History of Alexander and Indica, vol.II, App.XVI, pp.435-442, (Loeb Classical Library) 1983, and
L.Cerfaux - J.Tondriau
Le culte des souverains dans la civilization gréco-romaine (1957).

hiphys
agesilaos
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by agesilaos »

Ptolemy’s loyal soldiers, dressed as Arabs caravan salesmen took only the corpse and covered it with various cloths to hid he intense smell from the oils and perfumes and placed it inside their trade goods. In order to not be spotted by Perdikka’s soldiers they traveled only at night. It took them four months to reach the Sioua oasis where Ptolemy had built the tomb
This is based on Aelian XII 64
But Ptolemee, if we may credit Report, †† stole away the Body, and with all speed conveyed it to the City of Alexander in Ægypt. The rest of the Macedonians were quiet, onely Perdiccas pursued him ; not so much moved by love of Alexander, or pious care of the dead Body, as enflamed by the predictions of Aristander. As soon as he overtook Ptolemee there was a very sharp Fight about the dead Body, in a manner akin to that which happened concerning the Image [of Hellen] in Troy, celebrated by Homer, who saith that Apollo in defence of Æneas engaged amidst the Heroes ; forPtolemee having made an Image like to Alexander clothed it with the Royal Robe, and with noble Funeral Ornaments, then placing it in one of the Persian Chariots, adorned the Bier magnificently with Silver, Gold, and Ivory ; but the true Body of Alexander he sent meanly ordered by obscure and private waies. Perdiccas seizing the Image of the dead man, and the richly-adorned Chariot, gave over the pursuit, thinking he had gained the prize. But too late he found that he was couzened, for he had not got that at which he aimed.
Clearly not very closely, however, and the source clearly says the body went to Alexandria; in fact no source says that the body went anywhere other than Memphis or Alexandria; Siwah was a death bed wish but no source suggests it was acted upon, somewhat spoiling this ‘discovery’.
They passed by five oasis until they reached the one they wanted. All these neighboring oasis do not have neither Egyptian nor Ververian names but instead altered by times Greek ones. For example there is El Maraki oasis. It comes from the word “μειράκιο” (mirakio) because Alexander was too young when he began his campaign and that had made a great impression. Another one is called Τιμοίρια (Timoiria) and the word comes from the word “μοίρα” (moira) which in Greek means “fate”. There is also a forest that is called by the locals “Alexander’s forest” because it was there that the soldiers that carried his body rested before reaching the Sioua oasis
.

And yet the point of the trip to Siwah was that there was no water on the way. Cod (fake ) etymology is common and here we have the Arabs choosing to call something that impressed them by a Greek name, which no Greek would have applied to Alexander , all the more strange when ‘Mur’ is berber for ‘land’ and ‘-aki’ a genitive, as in Mar-rekesh, ‘land of God’, by not giving the Arabic name Timoiria is harder to explain but there was certainly a Timurid dynasty. A google earth search will not find either name in any form and an inspection of the land around siwa does not locate them either.
Alexander has many similarities to the god Dionysus. One of them is that both are depicted wearing women clothes- Alexander however just mimicked the god (after all he had participated in the mysteries of Dionysus
Only Ephippos says that Alexander used to dress as a goddess and that was Artemis.

So far so fantasy but it gets better
The emperor Traianos visited the tomb. There is an inscription that proves and it bears an engraved ivy symbol, a sign of mutual recognizing between members of the Dionysus mysteries participants. Emperor Andrianos also visited the tomb. There is an inscription of a Macedonian officer, Laonikeios (?) who visited the tomb and expresses his marvel. We have found this name in the history books, meaning that he indeed was an officer of Alexander.
Lastly there is an inscription of Ptolemy himself that makes a reference.
“I carried myself the light like a small shield body of his (towards the tomb). I am the last survivor, I am the keeper and what I did, I did so for him”
Well since Alexander’s tomb has never been discovered one can claim that anything is carved on it; Trajan seems never to have gone to Egypt, Hadrian did and minted a coin commemorating the event (his paramour Aristinous also drowned in the Nile) but he is not recorded as visiting the Sema. Laonikeios does NOT figure in the histories, Ptolemy was not the last survivor, both Seleukos and Lysimachos outlived him, this sounds more like the voice over at the end of Stone’s film.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
system1988
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by system1988 »

hiphys wrote:Hi system1988!

As far as I know there is a major study on the connection between Alexander and Dionysus:
P.Goukowsky,
Essai sur les origines du mythe d'Alexandre et Dionysos, (Les Belles Lettres) Paris 1981.

See also P.A. Brunt,
Arrian,History of Alexander and Indica, vol.II, App.XVI, pp.435-442, (Loeb Classical Library) 1983, and
L.Cerfaux - J.Tondriau
Le culte des souverains dans la civilization gréco-romaine (1957).

hiphys
Hi hiphys!

Nice to talk to you again!

Thank you for the book references, I hope they will also come handy here in the forum.
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system1988
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by system1988 »

agesilaos wrote:
Ptolemy’s loyal soldiers, dressed as Arabs caravan salesmen took only the corpse and covered it with various cloths to hid he intense smell from the oils and perfumes and placed it inside their trade goods. In order to not be spotted by Perdikka’s soldiers they traveled only at night. It took them four months to reach the Sioua oasis where Ptolemy had built the tomb
This is based on Aelian XII 64
But Ptolemee, if we may credit Report, †† stole away the Body, and with all speed conveyed it to the City of Alexander in Ægypt. The rest of the Macedonians were quiet, onely Perdiccas pursued him ; not so much moved by love of Alexander, or pious care of the dead Body, as enflamed by the predictions of Aristander. As soon as he overtook Ptolemee there was a very sharp Fight about the dead Body, in a manner akin to that which happened concerning the Image [of Hellen] in Troy, celebrated by Homer, who saith that Apollo in defence of Æneas engaged amidst the Heroes ; forPtolemee having made an Image like to Alexander clothed it with the Royal Robe, and with noble Funeral Ornaments, then placing it in one of the Persian Chariots, adorned the Bier magnificently with Silver, Gold, and Ivory ; but the true Body of Alexander he sent meanly ordered by obscure and private waies. Perdiccas seizing the Image of the dead man, and the richly-adorned Chariot, gave over the pursuit, thinking he had gained the prize. But too late he found that he was couzened, for he had not got that at which he aimed.
Clearly not very closely, however, and the source clearly says the body went to Alexandria; in fact no source says that the body went anywhere other than Memphis or Alexandria; Siwah was a death bed wish but no source suggests it was acted upon, somewhat spoiling this ‘discovery’.
They passed by five oasis until they reached the one they wanted. All these neighboring oasis do not have neither Egyptian nor Ververian names but instead altered by times Greek ones. For example there is El Maraki oasis. It comes from the word “μειράκιο” (mirakio) because Alexander was too young when he began his campaign and that had made a great impression. Another one is called Τιμοίρια (Timoiria) and the word comes from the word “μοίρα” (moira) which in Greek means “fate”. There is also a forest that is called by the locals “Alexander’s forest” because it was there that the soldiers that carried his body rested before reaching the Sioua oasis
.

And yet the point of the trip to Siwah was that there was no water on the way. Cod (fake ) etymology is common and here we have the Arabs choosing to call something that impressed them by a Greek name, which no Greek would have applied to Alexander , all the more strange when ‘Mur’ is berber for ‘land’ and ‘-aki’ a genitive, as in Mar-rekesh, ‘land of God’, by not giving the Arabic name Timoiria is harder to explain but there was certainly a Timurid dynasty. A google earth search will not find either name in any form and an inspection of the land around siwa does not locate them either.
Alexander has many similarities to the god Dionysus. One of them is that both are depicted wearing women clothes- Alexander however just mimicked the god (after all he had participated in the mysteries of Dionysus
Only Ephippos says that Alexander used to dress as a goddess and that was Artemis.

So far so fantasy but it gets better
The emperor Traianos visited the tomb. There is an inscription that proves and it bears an engraved ivy symbol, a sign of mutual recognizing between members of the Dionysus mysteries participants. Emperor Andrianos also visited the tomb. There is an inscription of a Macedonian officer, Laonikeios (?) who visited the tomb and expresses his marvel. We have found this name in the history books, meaning that he indeed was an officer of Alexander.
Lastly there is an inscription of Ptolemy himself that makes a reference.
“I carried myself the light like a small shield body of his (towards the tomb). I am the last survivor, I am the keeper and what I did, I did so for him”
Well since Alexander’s tomb has never been discovered one can claim that anything is carved on it; Trajan seems never to have gone to Egypt, Hadrian did and minted a coin commemorating the event (his paramour Aristinous also drowned in the Nile) but he is not recorded as visiting the Sema. Laonikeios does NOT figure in the histories, Ptolemy was not the last survivor, both Seleukos and Lysimachos outlived him, this sounds more like the voice over at the end of Stone’s film.

Thank you for your comment, as I have said, you gave a noteworthy reply to this already back in 2011.

Her book put me to thinking . The lady in question may either be rather sly or idiotic but she did find something in that desert. I just expressed my desire for us having the ability to know - should a miracle took place- from official scientific sources what sort of monument this is (having so many greek elements!). This also applies to the case in which the older excavation team unearthed the same monument as the link you sent suggests. The photos I posted are from the excavation site, here is the link, go to "Excavations" and scroll down to see them.

http://www.souvaltzi.gr/index_eng.html

As for the greek oasis names, Souvaltzi presents many of the sort and from her conversations with the locals, ancient city names are learned, given to small villages. One can seriously make a hypothesis that the locals could possibly be in a secret agreement with one another to intentionally give fake greek names so that their area gets some media attention and touristic value. An Egyptian linguist's help would be appreciated in any case.

To the name Laonikios I have also placed a questionmark as I didn't remember it well.

It is possible for an officer who deeply loved Alexander and was also In contact with the oracle of Ammon during his lifetime to have been burried there!
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Alexias
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by Alexias »

I came across this by Lorna Oakes, Pyramids, Temples and Tombs of Ancient Egypt
Greek influence can be seen in the decoration at Jabal al-Mawta, a short distance from the centre of Siwa. Of these, the tomb of Si-Amun is the most beautiful. The decoration is a mixture of Greek and Egyptian styles, explained by the number of Greeks encouraged to settle in Egypt during the Saite period (664-525 BC).
There is a description of this tomb here http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/si-amun.htm
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amyntoros
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by amyntoros »

system1988 wrote:. Her book put me to thinking . The lady in question may either be rather sly or idiotic but she did find something in that desert. I just expressed my desire for us having the ability to know - should a miracle took place- from official scientific sources what sort of monument this is (having so many greek elements!). This also applies to the case in which the older excavation team unearthed the same monument as the link you sent suggests. The photos I posted are from the excavation site, here is the link, go to "Excavations" and scroll down to see them.
Perhaps this article can shed some light. This is the "results" page of the German Archaeological Institute which excavated at Siwah for a good many years. There IS mention of a tomb and inscriptions, but nothing recorded is quite as Ms. Souvaltzi describes. (The following is only a small portion of the article.)
The temenos wall (stone; mudbrick?) surrounding the temple proper rested on ashlar foundations some three meters wide. A crypt measuring c. 7,90m x 10,80m touches upon the sanctuary to the south. The room contained a shrine and sarcophagi of local alabaster. It lay some three and a half meters below the floor of the sanctuary and must have contained at least two burials judging from the fragments of sarcophagi that were found. The large alabaster monoliths of the shrine bear traces of painted hieroglyphic text; stars as well as protective vultures and eagles decorated its ceiling slabs. Fragments of Greek inscriptions by visitors from Barke, Sparta and Crete were reused in the temple’s foundations indicating alterations in the dromos area.
Also, unfortunately, it is noted that "Due to the fact that the military finds the situation near the Libyan border difficult to control no permissions to work have been forthcoming since 2010."

Best Regards,
Amyntoros

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agesilaos
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by agesilaos »

System, It is not that the natives are giving false 'Greek names' but that Souvletzi is deriving false Greek etymologies. Back in the day I recall the Guardian ran a story on her initial 'discovery' and it was a Late Roman monument! I will see if they have it in there archives. It is only Souvletzi's interpretations I am criticising. The monuments themselves are of great interest.
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by hiphys »

Thank you system1988 for posting Souvaltzi site and many other interesting things!
However I didn't find the inscription (yes, my old stickler!) that, according to the press, she said to have discovered in 2010. I remember to have observed on a newspaper a photo with some Greek letters on a frieze. Is this a fake inscription, or what else?
system1988
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by system1988 »

hiphys wrote:Thank you system1988 for posting Souvaltzi site and many other interesting things!
However I didn't find the inscription (yes, my old stickler!) that, according to the press, she said to have discovered in 2010. I remember to have observed on a newspaper a photo with some Greek letters on a frieze. Is this a fake inscription, or what else?
Yes i remember this epigraphy. I think there is a photo of it in the book, ie the epigraphy of Traian in the Museum of Cairo (?)
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Re: "I carried in my hands his light – like a small shield- body"

Post by agesilaos »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 71876.html

The Independant not the Guardian, doh!
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