Olympias and the Katsas Tomb at Amphipolis

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Re: Olympias and the Katsas Tomb at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

This is not a court of law. I've had enough of this. As long as I'm (apparently) the only mod active on a daily basis then I will quote Paige: This is MY House. That means my rules. I'm ending this thread and if anything similar - and I mean anything comes up in other threads I will remove the whole post rather than waste my time editing or explaining my actions. Reference for future debates: Do NOT refer to the person except for the use of quotes. Do NOT refer to the "manner of the debate." Discuss only the subject matter. And if someone disagrees with you then deal with it by answering according to the subject matter and the sources. One word about how a person presents themselves and the post will be gone. I mean it.

Leaving this thread open long enough for Paralus to respond to Xenophon's last post and then I'm locking the topic.

(Edit, Tues morning NY time.) As Paralus has put up a decorous post and Agesilaos has asked a new question, I'll leave the thread open for now. However, if the thread deteriorates again I will lock without warning.
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Re: Olympias and the Katsas Tomb at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Can I just ask if there is a reference within Beresford that supports X's viewpoint ? I presume there is, page please
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Re: Olympias and the Katsas Tomb at Amphipolis

Post by Paralus »

Xenophon wrote:
Whatever. I think that where you have led discussion is a long way from the thread’s intended subject matter…
I have hardly “led” the discussion anywhere. What I have done is engage with matters as raised. It was actually Taphoi who raised Justin’s evidence; you, in fact, who raised the issue of reliability with Justin’s account (“lurid”; “less accurate”) to which I responded. The conversation has gone on since. The same can be said (and demonstrated) of the discussion which developed over Kassandros’ movements and their timing.
Xenophon wrote:For the “nth” time, I do not “dismiss” Justin, that is a falsehood. “Demonstrably fictional” alludes to Justin’s embellishments – what you yourself call “over the top additions” and “dramatic embellishments” - as I have repeatedly explained now. Why do you keep repeating this false accusation ?
Because it is neither false nor an “accusation”. Rather it is demonstrable fact. We were discussing Trogus/Justin’s account of Olympias’ murder and your exact words were:
Xenophon wrote:Justin’s account is demonstrably fictional and the details he gives impossible ( the thrusting gladius did not exist at the time), hence were added by him, I would give his account short shrift.
We see that "Justin's account" (not details) is fictional (the details are impossible – the gladius) and that “his account” (not details) is to be “given short shrift”. Thus Justin’s account is to be given “short shrift”. To give something short shrift is to dismiss it. In any language.
Xenophon wrote:On what basis do you say “her military situation is fine”? Her army at Euia was largely Molossian rather than Macedonian.
The great part of Olympias’ Macedonian forces will be with Polyperchon. These are the troops won over by Callas 19.37.6. Aiakides’ troops are separate as he is yet to march (fruitlessly). Olympias, on retiring to Pydna, designates Aristonous general and orders him to fight Kassandros. As for many other events in 318-317 in Greece (Kassandros and Polyperchon’s ‘confrontation’ post Megalopolis for example), severe compression of the original source(s) by both Diodorus and Trogus/Justin (near certainly Justin) means we are not told what happened but this is where the rest of her troops (aside from the court guard) will have gone. At the time of Euia Oylmpias’ military position was strong. Her faith in Polyperchon, just as strong, was fatally misplaced and would cost her dearly.
Xenophon wrote:Cassander on the other hand gained support whenever he set foot in Macedon, such as his first campaign “where he found many of the inhabitants coming over to him.”[Diod XVIII.75]. Later, of course, even those who still supported Olympias “abandoned the fortunes of Olympias in despair and joined themselves to Cassander.”[Diod XIX.36] – and this was before Polyperchon’s troops deserted. The speed with which Olympias’ power collapsed indicates that her hold on Macedon, and the Macedonians, was indeed tenuous, as I said.
Olympias’ hold on the Macedonians and Macedon was far from tenuous post Euia. It is her faith in Polyperchon and the complete mismanagement of the war which cost her. Your use of 18.75.1 actually demonstrates this for you have failed to indicate the context. This occurs immediately after Polyperchon abandons Megalopolis (18.72.1). Diodorus makes plain that Polyperchon began to be regarded with contempt (18.74.1). This because of military and political failure. Another failure would occur when Polyperchon lost a good part of his elephants to Kassandros as he went north from Megalopolis and then retired to Eprius to bring Olympias back after she finally agreed. This marks the high water mark as the Macedonians came over to the royal family. It is the complete mismanagement of the war by Polyperchon and Olympias following Euia which undid her military support.
Xenophon wrote:Where do you get “significant support” from ? There is no evidence for this speculation. The number of deserters who spread the news was small – the Ambraciots will have returned to Epirus – leaving only a smallish number of guardsmen. Though Cassander could have no idea of the support level for Olympias, he could deduce that there would be some, and spreading the news that Pydna was about to fall and Olympias was in a hopeless position was an obvious precaution to nip any futile revolts in the bud.
The Macedonians – and Diodorus refers to them as such throughout – had gone over to Kassandros “in despair”. That is, by force of the situation not any desire for Kassandros. It is clear that Kassandros is aware these Macedonians are not happily in his camp and that a substantial number – enough to be concerned about – are not in his camp. It is irrelevant where the Ambraciots went, the Macedonian deserters Kassandros sent to the “cities” to spread the word. These are likely the guards and their number is not known but certainly not in the tens. Further, as the text of Diodorus makes absolutely plain, Kassandros was seriously concerned over “the Macedonians” changing their mind. This does not simply mean over his kangaroo court conviction, something you focus on to the exclusion of other matters. He is concerned not only that the Macedonians will turn from him with Olympias’ murder but more seriously, should she be allowed to defend herself “before all the Macedonians” (19.51.4) in a second “assembly”. Thus Kassandros contrives to have her killed at sea by offering her an ‘escape’ before this can happen. It is plainly related by Diodorus.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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