The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Zebedee »

agesilaos wrote:Except that the Strymon may have been much closer to Kastra than it is now is it not here that there is a link to some 18th century paintings?
The map I posted has the older river line (pre-dredging) sketched out. I still make that a fair distance?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Assuming that the feet are not restores, and it looks like it is the upper body that has been, the shoes are significant as cothurnoi, or buskins, stage-boots. Dionysos was a patron god of theatre so the most natural interpretation would be that the female figure is one of the Muses, probably Melpomene (Tragic verse). Which is why she is on a pedestal and smaller.

The Karyatids may have represented both Muses, Melpomene and Thalia (Comedy), twin aspects of life, perhaps; the buskins would suggest the theatrical Muses rather than priestesses, methinks. The descending staircase and the long entrance sans doors with possible lower levels is looking rather 'cultic' with the weathering of the exterior frontage suggesting the structure was originally open, to allow further burials? It does not seem like a Heroon. Olympias had no cult, nor Rhoxane or any of the generals; the Royal family did, however, liking the Antigonid Mausoleion even more; were it not for that persistent late Fourth Century date, it would have to be mid-third, mmh?
The reason that the caryatids are the Macedonian priestesses of Dionysus called Klodones by Plutarch and Polyaenus is that they wear baskets on their heads. These head-carried baskets are the special sacred gear of the Klodones mentioned by Plutarch in the context of describing Olympias's women (Polyaenus confirms that they were priestesses of Dionysus). The Met-Hermitage Dionysus merely confirms the association of this type of female figure (hairstyle, clothing, footwear, stance, one arm raised and the other lifting her dress...) with Dionysus (the association would be confirmed even if they were Roman additions, although they clearly cannot be as I have explained). I do not believe that Muses (or Persephone or Spes or any of the other mutually contradictory guesses) would be depicted wearing the sacred baskets of the Klodones. I might add that the woman supporting Dionysus ought to be seen as his servant (which is another way of saying his priestess) because he is literally leaning on her. As regards the Antigonid Mausoleum theory, the lady who leads the excavation has said very clearly that it is futile to consider a date outside the last quarter of the 4th century BC. I do not know her specific reasons, but the dates being aired are very precise and it would be reasonable to suppose that she has an enormous collection of well-stratified sherds and coins by now.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by agesilaos »

Plutarch Alx 2 vii
But concerning these matters there is another story to this effect: all the women of these parts were addicted to the Orphic rites and the orgies of Dionysus from very ancient times (being called Klodones and Mimallones) and imitated in many ways the practices of the Edonian women and the Thracian women about Mount Haemus, 8 from whom, as it would seem, the word "threskeuein" came to be applied to the celebration of extravagant and superstitious ceremonies. 9 Now Olympias, who affected these divine possessions more zealously than other women, and carried out these divine inspirations in wilder fashion, used to provide the revelling companies with great tame serpents, which would often lift their heads from out the ivy and the mystic winnowing-baskets,3 or coil themselves about the wands and garlands of the women, thus terrifying the men.
Trouble is winnowing baskets are shallow and flat not at all like anything on the head of any caryatid, as for the certain date without an inscription it can only be a guess; neither coins nor shards date precisely, even carbon 14 would have a plus or minus of at least fifty years; the chief archaeologist is wedded to an Alexander connection, as the whole team seems to be; remember the nonsense about the 15840 metres, which you actually condemned yourself as based on faulty data? Info I have shared, by the way, and credited you for finding/knowing, never let it be said I would take credit for others' work. I know you are in the Olympias camp and hence in favour of her dating, despite (inconclusive) evidence that Olympias was buried in Pydna, but what dating evidence can there be? Pottery does not change style every year, nor do coins go out of circulation the year they are struck or foreign coins appear in Amphipolis when they are struck (Kassandros did not date his issues), nor do stylistic arguments provide precision especially in the provinces, which is where Amphipolis is. The problem with the stated date is that we are to suppose that Kassandros having eliminated Alexander's line then built a magnificent monument for them or him in a place not associated with the Argaeads and no historian mentioned it!

I looked at a betting site link from one of the Greek papers and the Antigonids did not figure, Osama Bin Laden and Elvis did! So did Olympias, on much shorter odds; but I 'm off to Ladbrokes with my guess, got to worth a pound or two; if things go anything like Verghina II it could be some time before anyone can collect, however; still something to leave in my will :lol:
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Plutarch Alx 2 vii
But concerning these matters there is another story to this effect: all the women of these parts were addicted to the Orphic rites and the orgies of Dionysus from very ancient times (being called Klodones and Mimallones) and imitated in many ways the practices of the Edonian women and the Thracian women about Mount Haemus, 8 from whom, as it would seem, the word "threskeuein" came to be applied to the celebration of extravagant and superstitious ceremonies. 9 Now Olympias, who affected these divine possessions more zealously than other women, and carried out these divine inspirations in wilder fashion, used to provide the revelling companies with great tame serpents, which would often lift their heads from out the ivy and the mystic winnowing-baskets,3 or coil themselves about the wands and garlands of the women, thus terrifying the men.
Trouble is winnowing baskets are shallow and flat not at all like anything on the head of any caryatid...
Happy to agree that winnowing basket is a dubious translation of Plutarch's word λίκνων. It actually means a fan-shaped piece of wicker used in winnowing or a basket with a fan-shaped cross-section used at the feast of Dionysus. The translator has tried to merge two separate meanings, but these baskets are obviously the latter - emphatically λίκνων are the headgear of these caryatids. How would a snake rear up out of a flat basket?

You can see λίκνων being used in a Dionysiac Procession in this Dionysus sarcophagus.
Image
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:
agesilaos wrote:
Trouble is winnowing baskets are shallow and flat not at all like anything on the head of any caryatid...
Happy to agree that winnowing basket is a dubious translation of Plutarch's word λίκνων. It actually means a fan-shaped piece of wicker used in winnowing or a basket with a fan-shaped cross-section used at the feast of Dionysus. The translator has tried to merge two separate meanings, but these baskets are obviously the latter - emphatically λίκνων are the headgear of these caryatids. How would a snake rear up out of a flat basket?
Not necessarily. It's known that the "winnowing fan" (or cradle) was a simple agricultural implement taken over and mysticised by the religion of Dionysus. And if you read about the various mysteries you'll find that ceremonial baskets were often covered with a cloth. A snake can definitely rear its head out from under a cloth, although I'm not sure why you think a tame snake couldn't lie flat in an open winnowing basket and then rear up. I don't really understand why the head baskets on the caryatids are considered by you to definitively indicate Dionysian worship and therefore Olympias. If the figures are such, then where are the truly identifying factors such as the thyrsos or ivy or even animal skins over the dress?

And an edit here on the Dionysus sarcophagus image and the basket therein. The sarcophagus is later Roman, and some of the imagery and fine details of a religion, particularly a mystery religion, were often changed after several hundred years (and a different country). I see the basket in the image you provided, but it and the basket on the heads of all the various caryatids looks like a kalathos which can also be found on statues of Cybele and Artemis (predating this tomb) as well as miscellaneous votives.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:It's known that the "winnowing fan" (or cradle) was a simple agricultural implement taken over and mysticised by the religion of Dionysus. And if you read about the various mysteries you'll find that ceremonial baskets were often covered with a cloth. A snake can definitely rear its head out from under a cloth, although I'm not sure why you think a tame snake couldn't lie flat in an open winnowing basket and then rear up. I don't really understand why the head baskets on the caryatids are considered by you to definitively indicate Dionysian worship and therefore Olympias. If the figures are such, then where are the truly identifying factors such as the thyrsos or ivy or even animal skins over the dress?

And an edit here on the Dionysus sarcophagus image and the basket therein. The sarcophagus is later Roman, and some of the imagery and fine details of a religion, particularly a mystery religion, were often changed after several hundred years (and a different country). I see the basket in the image you provided, but it and the basket on the heads of all the various caryatids looks like a kalathos which can also be found on statues of Cybele and Artemis (predating this tomb) as well as miscellaneous votives.
Whereas some flatter baskets may have been used in some aspects of Dionysiac ritual at some point in time, if snakes were being kept in them, the baskets are going to have been deep.
For example, there's a basket with a snake in it on the floor in the Dionysus sarcophagus above.
Also here is a coin of ~2BC from Pergamon: the caption is "shows the cista mystica (basket containing sacred implements of Dionysus) with snake". This must be what Plutarch meant by μυστικῶν λίκνων.
Image
I would not recommend anyone trying to keep snakes in a flat basket - they probably won't stay there very long :(
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by amyntoros »

Still that type of basket is absolutely not exclusive to Dionysian worship. :)
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Zebedee »

As there are no baskets on the Hermitage statue, I thought perhaps the back of the Met one may be of interest.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Efstathios »

The reason that there is no mention of the Amphipolis tomb in any ancient source is that only a small percentage of all the ancient scripts is saved until today, and of course there is the possibility that even everyone might have known about the tomb, no one actually wrote about it. But i doubt it, given that we only have the 5% of the ancient greek literature. Blame the one that burned the great library.

There is also the possibility that Alexander's body was secretly moved there and people only knew the tomb as of Roxanne, Alexander the 4th, Olympias or whoever else might be there. As archaeologists say, in archaeology all possibilities are open.

You are arguing to whether the karyatids have a basket on top, and it's an interesting conversation, but as i see it, it can just be the support for the entablature without any other significance. What's interesting is that the Karyatids have detail but the support for the entablature doesn't, which might mean that it's just only there as an ornament, as in the rest of the Karyatids.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:You are arguing to whether the karyatids have a basket on top, and it's an interesting conversation, but as i see it, it can just be the support for the entablature without any other significance. What's interesting is that the Karyatids have detail but the support for the entablature doesn't, which might mean that it's just only there as an ornament, as in the rest of the Karyatids.
Caryatids with baskets on their heads are sufficiently well-recognised as to have a special name in the literature: canephora (basket-bearers). They are maidens typically carrying sacred objects for feasts of gods and goddesses. In this case they are Klodones of Dionysos because of the triangulation between the fact that they are very typical examples of canephora and the fact that their dress, pose and hairstyle associates them wth Dionysus through the contemporaneous 4th century BC cult statue that was the basis of the Met-Hermitage Dionysus type.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:In this case they are Klodones of Dionysos because of the triangulation between the fact that they are very typical examples of canephora and the fact that their dress, pose and hairstyle associates them wth Dionysus through the contemporaneous 4th century BC cult statue that was the basis of the Met-Hermitage Dionysus type.
But the pose is common with many other caryatids, as is the hair. I thought we had mentioned archaising here, especially where architectural sculptures are involved. Apparently we didn't, so I must be thinking of PhDiva's blog. That link is just her latest post that mentions the subject; I know there are older posts too.

As for those which you claim to be 4th Century BC cult statues of the Met-Hermitage Dionysus type ... well, neither of them have baskets on their heads which has been the basis of your argument recently.

And how about this little lady? The pose is there, as is the hair and clothes. Yet here it is Aphrodite leaning on the "caryatid", and this one does have a basket on her head.
Image

For the record, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea that Olympias is buried in the Amphipolis tomb. I find it unlikely and I wouldn't bet on it (if that kind of betting was allowed where I live) but I'm actually not raising objections to that idea per se. I just cannot get behind your theories (and they are theories not facts) regarding the caryatids.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

Your point is well made. Clearly other canephora are supporters and therefore servants/priestesses of other gods in ancient statues/statuettes. Hopefully, you appreciate that your new example makes it very unlikely that the woman in the Met-Hermitage Dionysus was not original to its design, since it is evidently a standard form?

My answer is that the thing that is particularly distinctive about the Amphipolis canephora and the priestess in the Met-Hermitage Dionysus is that they all wear a chiton draped only over one shoulder and with a diagonal fold running beween the breasts. It appears to echo the panther skin drape on Dionysus himself. It also looks more like the way men wore chitons and therefore recalls Plutarch's alternative term for the Klodones: Mimallones or "men imitators".

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by agesilaos »

Harpokration is useful here; under liknophoroi liknon is defined as a basket made to take 'burnt offerings' ie ashes after the sacred rite; which suits the flat winnowing fan and that is how LSJ defines it too, so these are not Plutarch's 'likna', they might be 'kista' but these are not specifically Dionysian; Harpokration links them to The Goddess too, and canephorai are commen to many rituals,100 processed in the Panathenaia for instance. Maybe there is some identifying attribute which the archaeologists are keeping under their 'kausiai'.

They are too general to be tied to a specific cult as Amyntoros says, and Efstasios may be right that they are not actually carrying baskets, though perhaps the detail was painted on, but they might be bearing gifts to any cult, which would suggest cultic veneration for the occupant(s). Perhaps if we had a list of the buildings which had canephoric caryatids a picture would emerge?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Harpokration is useful here; under liknophoroi liknon is defined as a basket made to take 'burnt offerings' ie ashes after the sacred rite; which suits the flat winnowing fan and that is how LSJ defines it too, so these are not Plutarch's 'likna', they might be 'kista' but these are not specifically Dionysian; Harpokration links them to The Goddess too, and canephorai are commen to many rituals,100 processed in the Panathenaia for instance. Maybe there is some identifying attribute which the archaeologists are keeping under their 'kausiai'.
It is of course to be regretted that Plutarch did not have the benefit of the LSJ to ensure that he used Greek basket terminology correctly :D , but clearly he did not mean a flat winnowing fan, because it would not have suited the accommodation of snakes. My dictionary gives the winnowing fan and the basket as separate definitions, which correctly reflects Plutarch's usage.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by agesilaos »

Most snakes of my acquaintance manage to lie quite flat :D And whilst I deplore the general imposition of modern technical distinctions onto ancient language, when it is supported by ancient lexica it is a different matter; for instance if all these words merely meant 'basket' any visit to 'Dikaeopolis and sons' Basket Emporium purveyors of woven ware to the People since the Trojan War' would end up as a cross between Monty Pythons' Cheeseshop sketch and the Two Ronnies 'Four Candles' :lol: What is to be regretted is that we do not have Plutarch's source, which may not have been too interested in technical niceties and merely wanted to paint a picture, comic or horrid we cannot really discern.
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