The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

[agesilaos]

Naturally, I was only teasing, the possibility of Monopthalmos remains, however, or even the bearded Phlip V; like you Effy, I await the undisclosed finds with baited breath.

[Zebedee]

I'm looking wistfully at bearded men with white chariot horses on the Rhesos krater

Dorothy King's recent blogs are intriguing to say the least. She seems to be hinting at a re-founding of Amphipolis being possible under Alexander in her last one. There was evidence of major construction c.mid-C4th discovered around the walls so not sure whether that fits into the scheme she suggests.

On the soil testing she mentions, I believe soil and sand has been sent to Switzerland and results are expected in a few weeks. Where precisely these samples were taken I'm not sure has been announced yet; I'd imagine the fill at least.

[Alexias]

Having looked closer at the photos, it looks like there isn't going to be a Persephone under the sand to the right. The bearded man's left hand appears to be level with his breastbone, holding a flail or whip. It is rather difficult to see and the dark mark could be shadow or damage, but he wouldn't be able to hold onto a captive.

I found Dorothy King's post a tiny bit unprofessional, it's not her decision to decide what should be revealed, but she seems to be hinting that something major has been found. Could it be a statue standing on the mosaic in that circle? Or a column on which something such as an incense burner stood? It could contain an inscription, but if it had got stuck to the tesserae over the years, it's removal would account for the damage, which is very regular in shape, when the rest of the mosaic appears to be intact.

It is also interesting to finally see some bits of what look like marble (more of the doors?) embedded in the unexcavated soil. There is also a notch in the doorframe presumably to be associated with the closing of the doors, but we've heard nothing about anything found in the fill. Anyone who has ever watched Time Team will know that archaeologists only need a tiny piece of pottery to date a dig (and support their hypotheses). It is rather difficult to imagine that the whole of the fill has been completely clean. Nor have we heard anything about any finds on the floors of the chambers. What happened to the outstretched arms of the caryatids and the heads of the sphinxes (which were supposedly removed by the archaeologists)? Couldn't they at least release photos of these? And what happened to these supposed inscriptions http://www.crashonline.com/amphipolis-t ... -the-tomb/?

It's possible that for security reasons (if they've found gold or portable antiquities), they might fear a break-in so don't want to make the finds public. They might also be keeping any finds quiet until they have been securely dated by experts, but if they have found anything major, conserving and publishing it could take months, so maybe we shouldn't hold our breaths. I suspect though that the archaeologists already have a good idea of who is in the tomb.

[Alexias]

PS I just had a thought. Dorothy King's blog is entitled 'Alexander's horse(s)', but she says the blog isn't about the mosaic so she is not talking about the horses depicted. Is she saying that either they've found a statuette of a horse, or that the tomb is for a cavalry officer?

[Taphoi]

Having looked closer at the photos, it looks like there isn't going to be a Persephone under the sand to the right. The bearded man's left hand appears to be level with his breastbone, holding a flail or whip. It is rather difficult to see and the dark mark could be shadow or damage, but he wouldn't be able to hold onto a captive.

Well I'm seeing the bearded and wreathed charioteer (Hades?) with his body maybe facing away from us with a mantle draped over his right shoulder. His left arm maybe holding a flail and projected forward into the round patch of damage. A rather interesting disembodied arm, maybe wearing a bracelet, running downwards and resting on the chariot rail just near the excavation limit with its owner under the dirt. I could very easily be completely wrong though. The mosaic looks a bit grubby at the moment and the missing bits make it hard to be sure of anything. Persephone could just be standing in the chariot in Abductions of Persephone, as the vase depictions below show.
Best wishes,
Andrew

AmphipolisMosaic121014a.jpg (202.55 KiB) Viewed 3216 times

Late 4th century BC vase

persephonehadesvase.jpg (64.27 KiB) Viewed 3216 times

Abduction of Persephone

persephonehades.jpg (35.69 KiB) Viewed 3216 times

[Efstathios]

Dorothy King's blog is named "Dorothy King's PhDiva". There is a new blog post titled "Alexander was here...?" . In it she gives clues about what the archaeologists found before August and so far are keeping it a secret. It's the same reason why they have always known that the tomb was 325-300 b.c. And yes, as it is implied inscriptions have been found. Back in August when the Prime Minister visited the monument many people said that they have found something important and they are keeping the announcements for the press conference at Thessaloniki, and for political reasons. No big announcement was made back then, but it seems that they indeed keep something hidden, maybe even as a wild card, either for the possibility of elections or for the Fyrom issue.

A brilliant archaeologist would be unlikely to be convinced that Amphipolis was built for Alexander without extremely convincing evidence.

I won't tell you what that evidence is because the Greek Ministry of Culture is not releasing evidence found before August.

http://www.phdiva.blogspot.gr/2014/10/a ... -here.html

According to the clues she gives and the discussion at the comments section there is a possibility that the Amphipolis' tomb is a Cenotaph for Alexander the Great. Is someone else buried there? This i don't know, but the sealing of the tomb with sand suggests that they wanted to protect something.

Also, about the bearded man, Philip II had won a wreath at the Olympic games. If we don't see the far right side of the mosaic we can't tell for sure if there is someone else along or not.

[Zebedee]

There's certainly ample room for the mosaic to extend maybe up to 1m either side, if we use the doorway to judge its width, and the stance of the charioteer leaves room for someone to be dragged along with his left hand. I'm more intrigued than convinced that this isn't Hades, but an absence of a Persephone when it's fully uncovered would be remarkable.

[Taphoi]

There's certainly ample room for the mosaic to extend maybe up to 1m either side, if we use the doorway to judge its width, and the stance of the charioteer leaves room for someone to be dragged along with his left hand. I'm more intrigued than convinced that this isn't Hades, but an absence of a Persephone when it's fully uncovered would be remarkable.

So would you agree that we are in all probability looking at the tomb of an important Macedonian queen who died in the last quarter of the 4th century BC then?
Best wishes,
Andrew

[Zebedee]

So would you agree that we are in all probability looking at the tomb of an important Macedonian queen who died in the last quarter of the 4th century BC then?
Best wishes,
Andrew

Not in the slightest sorry Andrew. I don't think the likelihood of this being a female grave is high at all, though it remains a possibility. As I noted many pages ago, the Demeter/Persephone cycle is a common element to many tombs - including those with indisputably male occupants. To me, the evidence so far implies a male burial, the size and materials used implies exceptionally high status and the format of the tomb implies chthonic cult activity and the location of the tomb is distinctly odd. Only bones will reveal the sex for sure but currently female would seem to be a longshot, and even Macedonian royalty would seem unlikely should it have an occupant.

(edit: apologies for ninja edits, post came across 'wrongly' on re-reading).

[Taphoi]

Not in the slightest sorry Andrew. I don't think the likelihood of this being a female grave is high at all, though it remains a possibility. As I noted many pages ago, the Demeter/Persephone cycle is a common element to many tombs - including those with indisputably male occupants. To me, the evidence so far implies a male burial, the size and materials used implies exceptionally high status and the format of the tomb implies chthonic cult activity and the location of the tomb is distinctly odd. Only bones will reveal the sex for sure but currently female would seem to be a longshot, and even Macedonian royalty would seem unlikely should it have an occupant.

Okay, but I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think "exceptionally high status" and "chthonic cult activity" are incompatible with a female burial? Surely the location merely means that the individual died at Amphipolis? Hardly any bodies were moved a long way because of the difficulty and expense of preserving them and the Greek horror of rotting corpses. Who was of status higher even than royalty? Please forgive the questions, but I am intrigued as to which candidate you have in mind?
Best wishes,
Andrew

[Zebedee]

Okay, but I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think "exceptionally high status" and "chthonic cult activity" are incompatible with a female burial? Surely the location merely means that the individual died at Amphipolis? Hardly any bodies were moved a long way because of the difficulty and expense of preserving them and the Greek horror of rotting corpses. Who was of status higher even than royalty? Please forgive the questions, but I am intrigued as to which candidate you have in mind?
Best wishes,
Andrew

Bodies weren't moved, but cremated remains were. Alexander IV died at Amphipolis, but found his way to Vergina in the end after all. The likelihood of a female occupant for the tomb is based solely on the only (likely) gendered evidence so far known - the lion with shields decorating its structure. There's a huge shortage of female parallels for that sort of monument; perhaps one tomb with shields (no lion) and then the lioness/prostitute link (it isn't a lioness according to Lefantzis)?

Macedonian royalty tend to end up at Vergina, unless there's some major hiccup and we've Alexander IV and possibly Philip III and even Thessalonike too all showing up there. I'm not suggesting higher status than royalty, though one can perhaps argue for god/hero and I'm certainly not inclined to push too heavily against Dr.King's suggestion as I think she is aware of a lot more than has so far been revealed. Truthfully, I do not have a candidate in mind. I've played with the father of Cassander as an idea and I've played with Rhesos, the latter works better than the former with the evidence publicly available, but Alexander ticks all the boxes with the exceptions of he ain't buried there and why not Vergina. But if there's been work around Amphipolis which would push Alexander towards Amphipolis over Vergina....

Just going with the evidence as it stands now Andrew (edit: and naturally, just how i personally see it though I hope that goes without saying!) . That's an awful lot of boxes to tick for any candidate, and I'd be more inclined to think Roxana over anyone else should female remains be found inside.

[amyntoros]

Who was of status higher even than royalty? Please forgive the questions, but I am intrigued as to which candidate you have in mind?

Who was of status higher even than royalty? After the death of Alexander? I would say just about any one of his Friends who lived long enough to survive him. And I'm talking about their opinions of status, not ours! I'm no expert on the Successors (am sure our three residents on the period will either help me out or perhaps disagree with me) but even I am aware of each individual's sense of self importance. Why glorify a dead relative of Alexander if one could glorify oneself? Yes there was still an attachment to Alexander, but the army had followed him faithfully for years. After his death it isn't recorded that any army in the east declared for "...... (name of god) and Olympias before a battle"! If she had died before Alexander I can imagine the citizenship of a city (and anyone else trying to impress Alexander) wanting to glorify her for his sake. But after both Alexander and his mother died, flattering treatment of the deceased Olympias wouldn't have won you favor with those scrabbling for power (and/or achieving it) or the gods.

Post Alexander, status was a whole new ball game. Look at the wedding of Caranus: Athenaeus Book IV. 128 c – 131 e. Don't want to post the whole thing here unless anyone requests it, but the amount of money spent simply to impress at this wedding is beyond ridiculous. I don't know how much it would have cost to create sphinxes and caryatids and mosaics versus the amount of gold and silver creations doled out at the wedding, but I think it rather likely that someone who could afford the one could afford the other. And not to put too fine a point on it, but one can't help reading the Athenaeus quote and thinking "who the **** was Caranus?" Seriously, he's nobody to US! So it follows that the tomb in Amphipolis doesn't necessarily indicate royal status, but simply monetary status. Once Alexander had gone, followed by the rest of his line, there was a new royalty dependent upon money and how good your army was.

Did I just end on a preposition? Sorry, spent the day upstate (long journey) following up on NYC rescued horses who are not in the good place that I and my friends hoped. Am afraid I've already had a couple of drinks while typing this. Apologies

Best regards,

[delos13]

Is anybody else suspicious about the timing of releasing the news that the remains of tomb II in Vergina firmly confirmed as those of Philip II and latest announcements about the new finds in Amphipolis? I mean mosaic with Hermes and Phdiva accusation of government hiding important finds.

May be, of course, just a coincidence. Not that I have a theory how both are related but...just strange.

[Xenophon]

Nope !......just co-incidence. The fact that the male remains in tomb II could not be those of Philip Arrhidaeus was confirmed back in 2010 by the original team who examined the bones - Musgrave, Prag, Neave et al, refuting Bartsiokis hypothesis. ( see "Philip's remains confirmed thread' ) The recent report simply confirms the 2010 findings.......

[gepd]

Here is a mosaic of the mosaic using few of the highest resolution crops the ministry released:

http://prntscr.com/4vlqrs