The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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agesilaos
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Nice try but you are quite wrong about your graph and how to use it, there is a big clue in the y-axis label of TYPICAL CALIBRATED RANGE, the ‘calibrated’ being crucial, clearly applying uncalibrated dates is wrong and this is simply proven.

We know what the calibrated date range is at 1 sigma, your red line, if you draw a line across from 71BC as you suggest the range is 160BC to 40BC whereas we know the result should be 58BC to 11AD which is the result obtained by by drawing the line across fromm 24BC the centre of the calibrated date range; QED.

The report clearly states ‘charcoal’ not ‘soot’, nor was it gathered from the ceiling judging from Gepd’s post. Rootlets are normally fed from the photosynthesis of leaves far above they do not require sunlight themselves. 8)
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Nice try but you are quite wrong about your graph and how to use it, there is a big clue in the y-axis label of TYPICAL CALIBRATED RANGE, the ‘calibrated’ being crucial, clearly applying uncalibrated dates is wrong and this is simply proven.

We know what the calibrated date range is at 1 sigma, your red line, if you draw a line across from 71BC as you suggest the range is 160BC to 40BC whereas we know the result should be 58BC to 11AD which is the result obtained by by drawing the line across fromm 24BC the centre of the calibrated date range; QED.

The report clearly states ‘charcoal’ not ‘soot’, nor was it gathered from the ceiling judging from Gepd’s post. Rootlets are normally fed from the photosynthesis of leaves far above they do not require sunlight themselves. 8)
The graph is designed to tell you the calibrated date range for a sample of a specific real age going from the horizontal scale to the vertical scale. But it can also be used in reverse to tell you the real date range for a Carbon-14 date read from the vertical axis. I suppose there is a small adjustment because 71BC in carbon years (2020 years BP) calibrates to about 50BC. But the answer is still virtually the same, because there is still a small sub-peak of probability at 200BC. I have checked and the graph uses a measurement error of 35 carbon years and it is probably using 2-sigma on the uncertainty in the calibration curve itself, so it is showing fairly wide ranges, but it is from the University of Oxford radiocarbon centre and I would tend to trust their estimations of measurement accuracy.

It would seem most unlikely that tree roots ever penetrated the thick stone walls of the tomb chamber and trees/shrubs cannot have grown inside due to lack of light. Root matter found in the sealing sand is very likely already to have been there when it was used for the sealing, so its carbon date will date the sealing.

The carbon used for this date was found in a succession of layers in the sealing sand and is believed to be soot deposits from torches being used for light by the sealers. Soot from a torch will get everywhere, not just the ceiling of the chamber.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

Since there were some discussions about the fireze, there is also this from twitter:

Image

Which does not disagree with what the archaeologists say - i.e. the winged creature in the part of the frieze appears to be sitting on a boat. The coin is from Demetrios Poliorkitis, just to indicate a similar image, not to suggest that this frieze commemorates a specific event of Demetrios.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Here is a different conversion from the 2020 years before present (71BC) raw radiocarbon date to a calibrated date range that I have done. Thin red lines at 2-sigma (70 years) either side of the 2020 BP black centre line projected onto the horizontal calibrated dates axis. This gives 170BC to AD70 (not really very different from where we started and you could easily get back to 200BC by assuming a 50 year sigma and as you can see from the normal distribution drawn on this graph before I used it, much larger measurement uncertainties are often assumed especially for difficult samples like soot).
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

gepd wrote:Since there were some discussions about the fireze, there is also this from twitter:

Image

Which does not disagree with what the archaeologists say - i.e. the winged creature in the part of the frieze appears to be sitting on a boat. The coin is from Demetrios Poliorkitis, just to indicate a similar image, not to suggest that this frieze commemorates a specific event of Demetrios.
Thanks, gepd. The Nike of Samothrace stood on a ship's prow. I repeat what I have suggested before: this mural is a scene from the Mysteries of Samothrace.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

A thesis in Greek but with many nice relevant ship images in the end is here: http://ikee.lib.auth.gr/record/128802/f ... 2-8293.pdf
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:The Nike of Samothrace stood on a ship's prow. I repeat what I have suggested before: this mural is a scene from the Mysteries of Samothrace.
Could well be, although the scene(s) cannot be of the "mysteries" themselves, which were not to be spoken of by anyone and certainly not written down or painted for others (including/especially non-initiates) to view. The frieze would have been public before the room was sealed. It certainly could illustrate scenes from Samothrace itself as long as they do not show an initiation or a "revealing". After Philip's involvement/investiture with Samothrace it practically became a Macedonian institution so one might expect to find some sort of reference in a tomb. Thing is though, if the Nikes on the frieze are references to the Nike of Samothrace then aren't we're back to dating the tomb as probably second century? Nike is considered to be from around 190-200 BC (which may be why the archaeologists are calling the images just "winged creatures"!

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Oh dear, there is nothing wrong with Oxford’s data, which is why when it is used correctly you get the same result as the calibration programme and curve IntCal 13, why you think it is useful to map results on IntCal 04 (two versions removed from the current standard) I can only assume stems from some phobia in reading the labels on graphs; idly adding ten years to the sigma 1 range from an accredited dating centre is just an indication of how fixed ideas tend to pervert good method. These labs do not pull there margin of error out of the air, they are tested by an independent regulator.

Roots will not survive 2300 years at Pompeii they took casts of the plant root to discern the species, these were not burned but simply rotted away cf

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... l.pdf+html

The Nike of Samothrace dates to c.200 BC dated from shards beneath its base; it, however lacked a trumpet and, of course has no connection with the Mysteries of Samothrace beyond the geographical coincidence.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Oh dear, there is nothing wrong with Oxford’s data, which is why when it is used correctly you get the same result as the calibration programme and curve IntCal 13, why you think it is useful to map results on IntCal 04 (two versions removed from the current standard) I can only assume stems from some phobia in reading the labels on graphs; idly adding ten years to the sigma 1 range from an accredited dating centre is just an indication of how fixed ideas tend to pervert good method. These labs do not pull there margin of error out of the air, they are tested by an independent regulator.
So now that you have seen from yet another chart that you were wrong about the calibrated date range, you indulge in another of your little rants. But it is okay. I expect it. I forgive you.
agesilaos wrote:Roots will not survive 2300 years at Pompeii they took casts of the plant root to discern the species, these were not burned but simply rotted away cf

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... l.pdf+html.
More tosh. Root and wood in general will happily survive much longer than 2300 years in dry sand. We have Khufu's ship from the base of his pyramid for example, which is twice as old.
agesilaos wrote:The Nike of Samothrace dates to c.200 BC dated from shards beneath its base; it, however lacked a trumpet and, of course has no connection with the Mysteries of Samothrace beyond the geographical coincidence.
It is in fact still disputed whether the Nike of Samothrace was erected by Demetrios Poliorketes. It is certainly associated with a monument to one of his naval victories. And as we have seen he put a Nike on a ship's prow on his coins from the very beginning of the 3rd century BC. And before that there were Nikes on Alexander the Great's funeral carriage and before that on his staters. There is no reason to think that the version of Nike on a ship's prow now in the Louvre was the first or only such monument to stand on Samothrace in the precinct of the Mysteries. It may well depict something that had been part of the ceremonies on Samothrace for time immemorial. Certainly, the purpose of the Mysteries was to provide the initiate with safety at sea onboard ships.

I agree with amyntoros that the scene in the frieze is not a secret mystery, but probably the bull sacrifice that is believed to have been performed at the Mysteries. It appears that it is being conducted by two initiates wearing the crimson red belts that are stated to have been worn by initiates at the Mysteries of Samothrace. They are a young man and a young woman either side of the bull. See also Plutarch, Alexander 2.1.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

I don't think this is a cult site for the Cabeiri. There's a cremation in a grave. A lot of the elements which seem to be being pinned to Samothrace are very, very generic. Winged things etc. Useful to compare, certainly for mid 3rd century or whenever these are being painted.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:
agesilaos wrote:The Nike of Samothrace dates to c.200 BC dated from shards beneath its base; it, however lacked a trumpet and, of course has no connection with the Mysteries of Samothrace beyond the geographical coincidence.
It is in fact still disputed whether the Nike of Samothrace was erected by Demetrios Poliorketes. It is certainly associated with a monument to one of his naval victories. And as we have seen he put a Nike on a ship's prow on his coins from the very beginning of the 3rd century BC. And before that there were Nikes on Alexander the Great's funeral carriage and before that on his staters. There is no reason to think that the version of Nike on a ship's prow now in the Louvre was the first or only such monument to stand on Samothrace in the precinct of the Mysteries. It may well depict something that had been part of the ceremonies on Samothrace for time immemorial. Certainly, the purpose of the Mysteries was to provide the initiate with safety at sea onboard ships.
So you think the winged creature is the Samothracian Nike, the strong resemblance thus supporting your hypothesis that the frieze represents scenes from Samothrace? However, the dating of the Nike doesn't support your own dating of the tomb so now you suggest that there must have been earlier Nikes standing on prows that we don't know of, and the one excavated is merely a copy of earlier ones which had been erected also at Samothrace? This despite the fact that the only similar Nikes found are the ones on Macedonian coins. I think your linking the frieze with Samothrace is not unreasonable, but every time we have to "amend" the evidence to support the dating or an earlier hypothesis, usually with a variation on the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence argument", a theory becomes more difficult to rationalize.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
agesilaos wrote:
The Nike of Samothrace dates to c.200 BC dated from shards beneath its base; it, however lacked a trumpet and, of course has no connection with the Mysteries of Samothrace beyond the geographical coincidence.
It is in fact still disputed whether the Nike of Samothrace was erected by Demetrios Poliorketes. It is certainly associated with a monument to one of his naval victories. And as we have seen he put a Nike on a ship's prow on his coins from the very beginning of the 3rd century BC. And before that there were Nikes on Alexander the Great's funeral carriage and before that on his staters. There is no reason to think that the version of Nike on a ship's prow now in the Louvre was the first or only such monument to stand on Samothrace in the precinct of the Mysteries. It may well depict something that had been part of the ceremonies on Samothrace for time immemorial. Certainly, the purpose of the Mysteries was to provide the initiate with safety at sea onboard ships.
I'm afraid this statement is not terribly accurate.Just because Demetrius [338-283 BC] portrayed Nike on a ship's prow on coins does NOT mean that the Nike of Samothrace is associated with him. This is simply an example of the logical fallacy of a false analogy - the assumption of similarity leading to a wrong association, a fallacy which Taphoi is frequently guilty of. Agesilaos is quite correct regarding the dating, which is now firmly in the range 220-185 BC. Further, it is a misnomer to speak of "the precinct of the Mysteries", for the sanctuary as a whole was open to all, and initiations were only conducted in two particular buildings, the Anakraton ( built in Roman times where persons were initiated) and the Hieron, which only admitted initiates for "the viewing". The sanctuary itself was largely the creation of the Hellenistic dynasties who vied with one another to build and make dedications there. In Philip II's time there was but a smallish building on the site, later replaced as the location of the mysteries by the Hieron which was larger and more magnificent. The latter three sentences of Taphoi's statement are just uninformed speculation - the product of his own imagination. There is no evidence either literary or archaeological of any other similar monumen'ts existence. It was unique, the work of a master sculptor who may be the same as the sculptor of the the great frieze at Pergamon, and might be Pythokritos of Rhodes. The Nike herself was carved from white Paros marble,alighting onto the prow of a warship carved from grey Rhodian marble, and stood at the pinnacle of the sloping site in it's own three-sided building overlooking the large theatre, and the sea battle it commemorates is uncertain. ONE of the many functions of "The Great Gods" of Samothrace was to protect 'those in peril on the sea', albeit an important one.

The Nike has absolutely no association whatever with the 'Mysteries'. There is absolutely no evidence of a series of monuments associated with "ceremonies" since "time immemorial" - the first building was only erected in the 7 C BC.

[whilst composing this I see Amyntoros has also posted, making much the same points regarding the logical fallacy]

The 29 ton sculpture was removed from the Louvre and cleaned and restored during 2013-14, partly with money raised by crowd-funding. Instead of the former yellowish patina overall, the contrast between the white marble of the Nike ( which was partly painted, traces of blue and red paint were found) and the grey of the Rhodian marble base are now clear, and the opportunity was taken to add small parts subsequently discovered.

I would also re-iterate the point I made earlier that females did not participate in the sacrifice of Bulls, hence the depiction is most unlikely to be of such a sacrifice......
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

The image of a Nike on a ship is not restricted to Samothrace of course and is not a feature appearing only in hellenistic times. If you download the thesis linked few posts back you can see earlier depictions of that scene, e.g. like this one on an amphora from Capua in Italy, dated to about 330 BC

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Xenophon wrote: I would also re-iterate the point I made earlier that females did not participate in the sacrifice of Bulls, hence the depiction is most unlikely to be of such a sacrifice......
Not sure that's quite right to be honest. Typically they're labelled as 'priestesses', but there are a number of examples I can think of where women are involved in elements of ritual around a bull - whether placing garlands on necks, or making a libation, or generally being involved in or around what appears to be a bull being led to sacrifice. Could be misunderstanding what you mean? It's certainly not a sacrificial scene here in the sense that the bull is being sacrificed in the scene, but it could be a bull being led to sacrifice if all the relevant elements are there. And of course it won't be if they're not.

eg

Two priestesses placing garlands on bulls, next to tripods.

Image

---

Just another little thing about that scene is the odd spacing between the figure on the right and the bull and that of the left. There seems to be a gap between the bull and the figure on the left in the composition.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Regarding Zebedee’s comment: I have not suggested that the Amphipolis Tomb was a cult site for the Cabeiri. I have suggested that it was the tomb of an initiate of the Mysteries of Samothrace – specifically one who met her future husband there, by whom she bore a king who went on to conquer much of the known world.

Regarding the dating of the Nike of Samothrace in the Louvre: I personally do not particularly argue with 200BC (though I do not regard it as certain either). But there is no reason that she was the first such statue. There were many versions of most famous classical statues and many cult statues were destroyed and re-sculpted. The coins of Demetrios Poliorketes demonstrate that the image of Nike on a ship’s prow was current almost a century before 200BC. There was a ship monument seemingly celebrating a naval victory that was erected by Demetrios Poliorketes in a spot within the Sanctuary of the Great Gods overlooked by the Nike of Samothrace, so the coins of Demetrios are very likely to be associated with a cult statue of Nike on a ship’s prow that stood in the Sanctuary in his time.

I have not only linked the frieze in the Amphipolis Tomb with the Mysteries of Samothrace because of the Nike on a ship’s prow (although that is certainly a convincing reason in its own right, since the Nike of Demetrios and the Nike of Samothrace are by far the most important and famous representations of Nike on a ship's prow) I have also noted that the people are wearing crimson belts, which it is recorded were worn by initiates of the Mysteries of Samothrace. I have also noted that the scene takes place at night – lit by the tripod brazier. It is a particular recorded feature of the Mysteries of Samothrace that they took place at night. I have also noted that we have a garlanded bull and that bull sacrifice was recorded at the Mysteries of Samothrace and the sculpture with garlanded bulls below was found in the Sanctuary on Samothrace. Finally, I have proposed that the Amphipolis Tomb is the tomb of Olympias, the second most famous initiate of the Mysteries of Samothrace – the most famous being her husband Philip II.

The Nike of Samothrace in the Louvre was not blowing a trumpet with her raised arm, because the hand was found in 1950 and was open, but maybe the older cult statue that she replaced was blowing a trumpet. The coins of Demetrios (associated with Samothrace through his ship monument) would suggest that the cult image of Nike on a ship’s prow at Samothrace in his time did blow such a trumpet and the frieze in the Amphipolis tomb would tend to match and corroborate this inference. Nike blowing a trumpet on a ship's prow may be a unique (albeit indirectly inferred) connection between the Amphipolis Tomb and the sanctuary at Samothrace.

Nikes are associated with the Great Gods (see stele depicting the Great Gods below) and the Nike of Samothrace stood in the sanctuary of the Great Gods and some of its buildings were built in the 4th century BC. Females will not have excluded themselves from participating in Bull sacrifice ceremonies just because Xenophon would now like to think they did. In the vase depiction below both participants are female and there are plenty of other vases, if Xenophon still doesn’t get the picture.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Last edited by Taphoi on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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