The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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agesilaos
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Thanks
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

agesilaos wrote: I half agree with Andrew that the place to start is the original photos, but they are not fully available, the first comparanda ought too be Macedonian funerary iconography, however not the whole corpus of Greek art. The 'catch-all methodology' is a flawed basis and can be demonstrated by Corso's ridiculous argument about the form of the tree on the recently announced relief, which he compares positively to a Roman copy of a lost painting rendered in mosaic 1st C AD, a late Fourth century tree in a painted hunt scene and negatively with an encaustic painting of a garden also from the first century AD (Alexander Mosaic, Pompeii; Tomb II facade, Verghina; Villa of Livia, Rome) all lack snakes, so serve a different purpose, none are reliefs so are not comparable in technique, and two are Roman and not funerary!

Once elements seen in other tombs are identified one might consider decorative elements on public buildings and only finally consider features of Greek art generally. Not ignoring coins of course.
I think Corso is drawing perfectly valid links in how things are portrayed and their styles and forms and the potential to date from those comparisons. The problem is that he takes individual elements, assigns each their own meaning, and then throws them back together to create something unique as an interpretation of the whole'. I'd say he's missing a bigger picture, but he's drawn his own yet bigger one all of his own design!

Not sure the pose really works as an identifying mark of Artemis with centaurs. Are there any known examples of that cult being linked with centaurs? I suppose one could push the Chiron idea, but that seems tenuous? Unique perhaps in any form as a portrayal? To me that cult is Artemis riding a bull. And there doesn't seem to be anything which would place her in proximity to this one.

If there is no disc, I'd personally lean towards Dionysos but there's nothing there to really stand out as saying that. Just the elements and location generally. It's clearly not a bull being sacrificed, but it could be being led to sacrifice. I do see what is claimed to be a disc between the horns, but not a ditch I'd choose as my last for this tomb... If one looks at portrayals of bulls and centaurs then I think the striking curiousness of the 'harness' becomes a little clearer. It could be a difference in shading or texture on the breasts, but it doesn't seem to be. It seems clearly marked off. Just an odd one, if not as curious as whether a hoplon (awful word) is an aspis or an aspis is a hoplon etc etc :D

It's a problem for any interpretation of these scenes. There are parts where you expect things to conform but, as with the cuirass, it's all a little wonky in presentation to seem to fit.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

The note that Pauline refers to writes:

"It was previously accepted that the riders, at least at the time of Alexander's campaigns, did not carry a shield (see. Snodgrass 1967, 120; Hatzopoulos, 2001, 51). This view is no longer valid, including the theory that the metal greaves belonged to the equipment of the infantry. See also Andronicos (1984, 137) and Faklaris, ibid (Pt. 10, 108) for the hoplite shields in the tomb of Philip."

This also appeared, which practically summarizes much of the criticism to Corso's article done here, but the author ignores the reference from Pauline.

https://www.academia.edu/23834361/A_Rel ... nary_Notes
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

I do not find Corso's method in the least bit 'valid'; the motif he is discussing is not simply a tree, it is a snake in a tree, he then compares it to two Roman trees and one Macedonian but none are parallel as they are not possessed of serpents and the two Roman examples are not from a similar, funerary or cultic, context; nor can the arms of the accompanying soldier be ignored. It is bizarre to proclaim that the style of the tree proves it is late Fourth Century while the soldier has arms of the mid-Third. It is a desperate attempt at misdirection, along with the claim that the perfectly normal sized cavalry shield is an oversized infantry pelte, therefore it is borne by a child or that the normal 'spina' is a sarissa head. It is not hard to see why he plumped for a false comparison of trees rather than consideration of the motif, the snake only appears after the end of the Fourth Century too late for the entrenched but unsupported dating. This is Sci-Fi Archaeology 'Whatever is not in accord with the Prime Directive must be eradicated' :shock:

The process is not furthered by the dissenting voices adopting the equally fallacious 'Roman Date' when anyone with a passing acquaintance with archaeology can see it is Hellenistic; here in England we are familiar with wrong headed governance and ineffective opposition :evil:

Zeb, Artemis must have dismounted sometime! I do not think we are informed about the cult myth so placing its symbols would be difficult. I do not say that this is the answer, however, only that when you have a bull depicted in a tomb near a city with an established bull-cult, it is sensible to explore that cult before supposing links to Egypt which was generally hostile; Ptolemaic funds driving revolts in Greece is a trope of the third century; in the fourth Egyptians are unlikely to have moved to Macedonia rather Macedonians were actively encouraged to settle in Egypt, making the direction of influence awkward.

It is impossible to be definitive about the frieze given its presentation, this is the stage of 'active speculation' which is enjoyable but requires salt, though not in the artery-hardening quantities of Corso's speculations :lol:
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Haha! The eternal divine rodeo? Don't disagree with you on looking for Artemis in there at all. Just wondering whether I was missing something with the idea. My knowledge of this cult could be quickly written on the back of a matchbox. As indeed with most things. :D

Just on the Egyptian links, I say nothing on politics or funds, but that cults were active by early 3rd century BC is certainly well supported (eg the Veymiers essay in French I linked, and Mari's in English briefly touches upon it too). Where that fits into a wider picture, one for much debate should that disc be established as present perhaps. Just as an aside, but would one expect the apis bull to appear with centaurs? I suspect not. Which is why I lean to something along the lines of rebirth/regeneration (Dionysos) or perhaps even something like Heracles for the heroic links. In it's current state, it's association rather than precise symbolism isn't it?

I certainly don't think some (ok, most) of Corso's conclusions are valid. But to me it's perfectly reasonable for an art historian to look at the development of portrayals of a tree and then begin to point to the whens and whys. One doesn't get to invent one's own meaning to place on such things though! Or at least not without a whole lot more evidence. And Corso's overall conclusions are cockeyed to put it mildly. It's less where he's going for information and comparisons and more how he's trying to use it. That the style of the tree would otherwise point to late fourth century is interesting to me. It doesn't date the stele given the fact that other elements in it just won't squeeze into that date, but it's interesting. I'm sure the horse's head could be similarly described and placed to a rough date. But as you say, one can't do it for one element, and then ignore the obvious issues caused by others. And even worse attempt then to explain them away so implausibly.

----

Thank you gepd. I posted a stele Hatzopoulos suggests actually depicts a shield being carried by a cavalryman, dated to c.300 BC, a few pages back. It seems a fun debate over the precise whens of shield use by Macedonian cavalry.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

Here are some details regarding analysis of the burn layers in the fill of the burial chamber. Not sure if the date given is the uncalibrated one or not. If it is the uncalibrated radiocarbon age, then the calendar date and 1-sigma error for the sample is 24 BC +/- 34 yrs (based on the tool Agesilaos linked earlier), so half-century later than the 70 BC announced.

Image

What is also not clear to me is the depth from which the sample was taken, as there are several burn layers. If its from the top, it could be from the last Roman looters entering there, so not necessarily representative of the sealing date.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

My understanding is that all the chambers were sealed and filled at the same time after which there could be no access, although later the peribolos and lion pieces were removed and re-purposed. It is also clear from this that it was charcoal and not 'soot' which was tested negating many of Taphoi's concerns.

It has to be said, however that the date of the sealing, need not coincide with the end of the cult, that could have ceased functioning many years earlier and the chambers just been used as refuge for travelers, as has been observed in other tombs.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

gepd wrote:Here are some details regarding analysis of the burn layers in the fill of the burial chamber. Not sure if the date given is the uncalibrated one or not. If it is the uncalibrated radiocarbon age, then the calendar date and 1-sigma error for the sample is 24 BC +/- 34 yrs (based on the tool Agesilaos linked earlier), so half-century later than the 70 BC announced.

...What is also not clear to me is the depth from which the sample was taken, as there are several burn layers. If its from the top, it could be from the last Roman looters entering there, so not necessarily representative of the sealing date.
Thanks gepd. That is very interesting.
The date is evidently uncalibrated (you cannot state a +/-30year 1 sigma error for a calibrated date.) It is C-14 uncalibrated years Before Present, where Present is defined as AD1950. Therefore the date of 70BC is precisely correct (except for the 1-year correction for the fact that there was no year 0). However, it is also quite incorrect and misleading as a news report, because the news should only have reported a calibrated date. The equivalent calibrated date range at 2 sigma error margin (95% confidence, which is what ought to be being used here) is 200BC to roughly AD20. I expect that completely changes everybody's perspective on these results (as well it should).

There is still the greatest doubt regarding whether there might have been contamination of these samples. The cleaning procedures that they mention are standard, but medieval bacteria in cracks in the soot particles would have decayed away to carbon by now and would not have been touched by this cleaning. Contamination is almost always by younger organics and therefore gives a systematic error to a younger date. Contamination at less than the 1% level would have changed these samples from 4th century BC to what they are actually reporting.

I do wonder whether discussions of the "centaurs" are a bit too credulous. Their hindquarters are really not properly discernible in the photos and the claim that the things that look for all the world like loin cloths or kilts are actually peculiar crescent shaped bits of gold bling is really quite a stretch. I am reminded of the Grimm story of the King's New Clothes.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:
I do wonder whether discussions of the "centaurs" are a bit too credulous. Their hindquarters are really not properly discernible in the photos and the claim that the things that look for all the world like loin cloths or kilts are actually peculiar crescent shaped bits of gold bling is really quite a stretch. I am reminded of the Grimm story of the King's New Clothes.
The word you're grasping for is 'phalera' not bling Andrew ;)

Like this:

Image

(Bronze, just under 12cm across, found at Elis, currently resident in the British museum and dated to c.350 BC)

Obviously that one's a baby one.

If that's your idea of a stretch, we'll have to differ there Andrew. It may not be harness. But it seems curious.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

CAL KAS 1.png
CAL KAS 1.png (78.37 KiB) Viewed 9895 times
The 2 sigma range is more like 100 BC to 40 AD.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

From the 2015 presentation of the same person who presented the analysis of the burial chamber's charcoal, it is actually stated that the burn layer sampled comes from the lowest parts of the west wall, and towards the north end of the chamber. The region sampled is below:

Image

The burn layer was interrupted, as seen on the right of the image, due to sand that came out from outside, through a small opening on the west wall, that resulted from natural disaster driven damages.

Image

Interestingly, it was said that in the sand that came from the outside (i.e. the earthen fill covering the chambers) they found also pieces of charcoal, but did not specify if they carbon dated that.

Regarding centaurs, a simple google search gives immediately this result which you may have seen:

Image

on the center is supposed to be Venus. This was found in Tunisia, dates to the 3rd or 4th century AD. This is an unusual image, nit sure where it is derived from, but its the closest parallel to the supposed Kastas image on the frieze. Maybe if one knows where analysis of thr Tunisia mosaic has been published, we can look up if the authors mention any similar artworks.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Zebedee wrote:
Taphoi wrote:
I do wonder whether discussions of the "centaurs" are a bit too credulous. Their hindquarters are really not properly discernible in the photos and the claim that the things that look for all the world like loin cloths or kilts are actually peculiar crescent shaped bits of gold bling is really quite a stretch. I am reminded of the Grimm story of the King's New Clothes.
The word you're grasping for is 'phalera' not bling Andrew ;)

Like this:

Image

(Bronze, just under 12cm across, found at Elis, currently resident in the British museum and dated to c.350 BC)

Obviously that one's a baby one.

If that's your idea of a stretch, we'll have to differ there Andrew. It may not be harness. But it seems curious.
And for your next trick, will you show us evidence that this was worn above the front legs of a (baby) centaur? :)

Exactly how big is your example, please?

How do you know that it is a piece of horse (or centaur) harness (i.e. phalera)? Ostensibly it could be a piece of crescent shaped decoration off anything and it appears to be pointed at one end and rounded at the other - a bit odd if you are suggesting it was worn as the archaeologists have imagined for their "centaurs".

Where are the examples of 4th century BC centaurs wearing these giant gold/bronze crescents?

Pending some better evidence, I'm sticking with stretch and bling. They still look like kilts to me and these should be human figures preparing the bull for sacrifice. Their poses are right for that.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:The 2 sigma range is more like 100 BC to 40 AD.
Absolute tosh. Here is an intelligible diagram. You can read 71BC off the vertical scale and the blue lines delineate the 2-sigma 95% calibrated range on the horizontal scale.
Best wishes,
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Carbon14b.png
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:
And for your next trick, will you show us evidence that this was worn above the front legs of a (baby) centaur? :)

Exactly how big is your example, please?

How do you know that it is a piece of horse (or centaur) harness (i.e. phalera)? Ostensibly it could be a piece of crescent shaped decoration off anything and it appears to be pointed at one end and rounded at the other - a bit odd if you are suggesting it was worn as the archaeologists have imagined for their "centaurs".

Where are the examples of 4th century BC centaurs wearing these giant gold/bronze crescents?

Pending some better evidence, I'm sticking with stretch and bling. They still look like kilts to me and these should be human figures preparing the bull for sacrifice. Their poses are right for that.

Best wishes,

Andrew
We've been at this long enough you should know that I know what a statue looks like from behind :)

The post you quoted does have the size, it seems redundant to post it three times, but, again, 12 cm across in width . That is likely from the harness on a horse's forehead. [edit: although circular ones (blinging away in silver) are around 10cm in diameter and seem to be shown on the chest]. But it does move us from strange crescent shaped objects to something tangible. The British Museum has it as part of horse's harness, I'm sure they'd value your opinion of their opinion if you cared to offer it to them. In the meantime, perhaps we could make up a story about why the sharp pointy bit on one side is no longer sharp and pointy 2300 years later?

As my examples before show, Greek artists were having the harness in roughly the right place when depicting unusual creatures doing unusual things. Thank you for not adding Macedonian to the list of requirements there. I was frantically searching the Tomb of Judgement's depictions hoping that one of the Lapiths had managed to mount a centaur. More seriously, no, I've barely had time to dig out some examples of centaurs in harness to establish that they were portrayed pulling anything. It's so darned curious, isn't it?

I'm all for crotchless kilts too, but they seem less Emperor's New Clothes than Taphoi's Fantasy Wear. ;) And it still doesn't explain the crescent shape on the bull's lower chest. A bull in a kilt would be a most glorious sight to be sure.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Zebedee wrote:I'm all for crotchless kilts too, but they seem less Emperor's New Clothes than Taphoi's Fantasy Wear. ;) And it still doesn't explain the crescent shape on the bull's lower chest. A bull in a kilt would be a most glorious sight to be sure.
They are not crotchless. The photos show that about 90% of the paint is gone. The "crescent" on the bull only looks like a crescent in the weird fantasy reconstructions. In the photos it looks like the remains of a wreath or garland. Perfectly normal for a bull about to be sacrificed.
Best wishes,
Andrew
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