The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:The tomb was sealed at around the 3rd century A.D.
If people were walking on the mosaic for over half a millennium, it is in remarkably good condition. Pompeii mosaics were only exposed for a century or so before the eruption, but exhibit very heavy wear patterns. It is also remarkable that a Roman sealer did not use mortar for the sealing walls. It is even more remarkable that anyone in the Roman period was motivated to spend so much money and time on sealing the tomb up.
I suggest that you check exactly what they said and what their evidence was. If they have Roman material from inside the sealing wall erected in front of the sphinxes, then that is conclusive, but in the absence of such material, the sealing date is speculative and probably wrong and much too late. Somebody should ask them: "What is the latest date of datable material found within the sealing wall in front of the sphinxes?"
A stone choosing randomly to fall on the pelvis, when it was embedded in sand, also stretches credulity.
Hardly anything else was new: everybody already knew about the shields.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

The stone sheared the face off one of the Karyatids, from what I have read, there is still no confirmation that the pelvis is smashed, the skeleton was removed within its matrix and that maybe why the sexing has not been forthcoming, they have just not cleaned the bones enough yet, presumably to preserve possible evidence.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Alexias »

Efstathios wrote:
Mr Lefantzis said that the third room was re-constructed at a later time as there is repositioning of materials.
Does this mean that the bones are likely to be later than the original construction of the tomb?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote:
  • 1) There is a very high degree of confusion in the reports at the moment, so concluding anything is dangerous.

    2) If the peribolos is elliptical, then it is only very slightly elliptical and it does not mean that either the major or minor axis was not a stade.

    3) If people were walking on the mosaic for over half a millennium, it is in remarkably good condition.

    4) It is also remarkable that a Roman sealer did not use mortar for the sealing walls. It is even more remarkable that anyone in the Roman period was motivated to spend so much money and time on sealing the tomb up.

    5) If they have Roman material from inside the sealing wall erected in front of the sphinxes, then that is conclusive, but in the absence of such material, the sealing date is speculative and probably wrong and much too late.

    6) Hardly anything else was new: everybody already knew about the shields.

    7) A stone choosing randomly to fall on the pelvis, when it was embedded in sand, also stretches credulity.
No. What is remarkable is your religious fervour to dismiss any and all information counter to your religious doctrine. In the process of which you are quite happy to call into question the integrity of the archaeologists involved in the dig and presentation just as you did the "intrepid" epigrapher Edson who is responsible for "invention". Like all of us, you have not been on the site; you have not been 'eyeball to evidence'; you have seen little more than internet news service photos of the damaged mosaic and other evidence; you have not seen the skeletal remains in situ yet you have the effrontery to call into question the archaeologists' statements about the damaged pelvis and Roman material etc from the comfort of your amateur's armchair. All because they don't conform to your "theory".

I believe it is time for you to to take your own advice and "leave it there" for the 'confused' archaeologists in charge of the dig (unsurprisingly) make more sense than do yourself.
Last edited by Paralus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Alexias wrote:
Efstathios wrote:
Mr Lefantzis said that the third room was re-constructed at a later time as there is repositioning of materials.
Does this mean that the bones are likely to be later than the original construction of the tomb?
No. They have asserted (I think correctly) that the grave trench is older than the mound and monument.
The only thing they have said that does not make sense is that they suppose the sealing to be later than the Roman demolition.
I might add that that would imply that the sphinx heads were weathering on top of the sphinxes for five or six centuries, yet the photos of the one they found show it to be almost pristine. There should be wear patterns on all the paving and the steps, but there is no sign of it in the photos they have released. :?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Efstathios wrote:The tomb was sealed at around the 3rd century A.D.
Efstathios, is that exactly what was said or a misinterpretation by someone down the line? You hadn’t mentioned it earlier, but had said instead: "Also, the monument was initially open for visits, and there were lootings. The monument was sealed with sand and the walls at the same time. The openings on top in the rooms were used for the sealing with sand. Items and coins have been found inside the rooms from different periods and up to the 3rd century A.D."

Andrew had replied to your top statement so for now I'll respond accordingly.
Taphoi wrote:If people were walking on the mosaic for over half a millennium, it is in remarkably good condition. Pompeii mosaics were only exposed for a century or so before the eruption, but exhibit very heavy wear patterns. It is also remarkable that a Roman sealer did not use mortar for the sealing walls. It is even more remarkable that anyone in the Roman period was motivated to spend so much money and time on sealing the tomb up.
(And, from a later post)
I might add that that would imply that the sphinx heads were weathering on top of the sphinxes for five or six centuries, yet the photos of the one they found show it to be almost pristine. There should be wear patterns on all the paving and the steps, but there is no sign of it in the photos they have released
Well, even if the tomb was sealed earlier than the 3rd Century AD your remarks are still somewhat relevant. First of all, Heroons were not open for people to trample in and out on a daily basis. Walter Burkert explains:
The hero cult, like the cult of the dead, is conceived as the chthonic counterpart to the worship of the gods, and is attended by blood sacrifices, food offerings, and libations; the preparation of a bath is often found, and weeping and lamentation are frequently attested. The main event, however, is the cultic feast of the living in the company of, and in honour of, the hero. Accordingly, the hero is often shown recumbent at the feast, and in the Tetrapolis calendar, each hero is accorded his heroine. As a rule, the hero receives his emagismata once a year on the day appointed in the festival calendar.
To date there have been no discoveries recorded of altars and accompanying paraphernalia, nor is there any evidence (yet) of a roof over the sphinxes. However, one report published yesterday says this:
Furthermore, Lefantzis noted that several marble pieces had been removed from the area outside the tomb, causing great destruction. Most of the marble pieces were used as dams for Struma river and other construction work. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/11 ... Ynxdh.dpuf
So, the marble pieces could have been part of a support and exterior roof (porch) so the sphinxes might have been covered and therefore wouldn't have deteriorated at the same rate had they been exposed. Also, the steps etc. would definitely not have been subjected to considerable traffic, even before the tomb was sealed. Even if they had a 'ceremony' every month the wear and tear would not have been extreme. And that amount of actual cultish worship is unlikely. There was a Heroon to Achilles in Sparta and it is recorded that it was only opened once a year.

I'll finish with a quote from the occasionally maligned Dr. Dorothy King. She posted the following on her blog on September 20th. Not only did she suggest much which was revealed yesterday, she also answers your question as to why not Roman "mortar". Oh, and she mentions the 3rd century coins being found in the superstructure.
The soil back-fill and the walls that sealed each chamber were almost certainly contemporary; soil was probably used instead of concrete as it meant the tomb could be sealed and the roof supported, but not necessarily lost as would be the case with Roman concrete. The walls would have been necessary to hold in the soil, to stop it pouring out. I assume that there are small finds within the soil which will help date this - bits of pottery, dropped coins, etc - but I am not aware of them.

My guess is that the architecture was not strong enough to support the mound, and that after an earthquake it began to cave in, so the soil was used to support the structure.

The destruction of the superstructure was initially thought to be Byzantine iconoclasm, then coins were found in this destruction layer which were presented at the conference, and which I am pretty sure put this in the early 3rd century AD. So the possibility was discussed that the superstructure was used to dredge swamp land by the river to combat malaria, but this was also set aside.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

There was a lot said in the presentation that have not been covered in the summaries of the news media that aim at the main points and headlines. Mr Lefantzis when he was showing slides of the mound against hill 133 (the big hill next to the mound) said that the mound should be viewed as a part of a wider array, and that there will be archaeological research cuts in various places in the surrounding area. Maybe this suggests that there is something in hill 133 too?

The part with the questions from the reporters is also interesting, a lot of questions were about when the monument was sealed and why. The answers were that aside form Romans there was also the presence of Goths and Thracian tribes in the area. The first looting might have taken place by the Romans after the battle of Pydna, or by others, and after that they repaired parts of the tomb. The sealing was made sometime around the 3rd century A.D. at the same time that the Romans were removing marble blocks from the perivolos with the crane that was found near it. The stone blocks that were used for the sealing walls were from parts of the monument. The sealing with sand was made at the same time with the sealing with the walls, as the first wall in front of the sphinxes was at 80% set on the sand. The question is who sealed the monument at the later Roman years and why. At the same period Severus sealed the tomb of Alexander in Alexandria, maybe there could be a connection there.

P.S As for Amyntoros question, Mrs Peristeri replying to a question by a Greek reporter said that there have been found coins from the 3rd century A.D.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
If people were walking on the mosaic for over half a millennium, it is in remarkably good condition. Pompeii mosaics were only exposed for a century or so before the eruption, but exhibit very heavy wear patterns.
A completely untrue statement in every respect. Why on earth do you make up this sort of thing ? The mound/tomb mosaic is a 'pebble' mosaic, possibly the finest extant, and certainly among the finest. The earliest of these date to the 8 C BC from Gordion, and by the 5 or 4 C BC latest appear in Greece and Macedon, as evidenced by the famous examples from Olynthus [destroyed in 348 BC by Philip] and Pella. They reach their apogee of sophistication from roughly the Philip/Alexander era to circa 200 BC. [digression: if we were to judge solely by the style of this pebble mosaic, we would put its creation closer to 200 BC than 300 BC, but mosaic style is not at all dating evidence].

They are generally made of whole pebbles set in a matrix, usually concrete. The mosaics at Pompeii are of the 'tessellated' variety, which appeared initially in Sicily around the mid third-century, and became very widespread by 100 BC. They are made of small cubes of cut stone and sometimes other materials, set in concrete. These largely superceded the 'pebble' type in the Hellenistic world in the second century BC. ( I hasten to add that in the interests of brevity, these are broad generalisations and simplifications).

Now if there is one thing which can be said of a floor made of stone set in concrete, it is that it is extremely durable! For example, in Britain you can find mosaic floors made in Victorian and Edwardian times using identical techniques to the Romans, everywhere from great buildings such as museums and public baths right down to shop entrances which have been walked on by millions over the last 150 years or so and which show little or no signs of wear.

The older houses extant in Pompeii date back to the third century BC, and their mosaics to the second century BC, though they are difficult to date, precisely because of their durability and lack of wear. Many were thus some 200 years old when the eruption occurred, not "a century or so". I have visited Pompeii, Herculaneum and other Vesuvian villas, and the museums displaying their mosaics many times since the 1970's, and I can assure you that few, if any, show signs of wear at all, let alone "very heavy wear patterns".

This latter interpretation comes from the work of Martin Beckman, a Canadian who interpreted the current damage to the extant Alexander mosaic as "wear" from Romans crowding around to look at Alexander, while the owner of the house stood to the right of Darius on another damaged patch, and it assumes the damage occurred, and the concrete patches were put in as repairs, in Roman times. This mosaic was installed between 110 BC and 75 BC, in the second phase of building of the House of the Faun, hence this one mosaic is indeed about a century old. The House of the Faun was excavated between 1830 and 1832, and the mosaic discovered in 1831. Almost immediately it was painted, intriguingly, in completely intact form, by the Italian artist Michele Mastraccio . It is uncertain whether the mosaic was actually intact when Mastracchio painted it, or whether the artist simply used his imagination to 'fill the gaps'. The painting, along with the mosaic, are to be seen in the Naples museum. The mosaic was dug up and moved to the Naples Museum some time later in September 1843, and regrettably for Beckmans postulation, the damage might well have occurred in this process. Moreover the tesserae, each less than 4 mm across, are not worn at all, but completely 'missing' from the damaged patches. Nothing suggests any 'wear' on the mosaic, and there are no signs of any. If the damage really did occur in antiquity, it is far more likely to be due to the earthquake of AD 62, rather than 'wear' from feet standing around it, for the House of the Faun suffered serious damage in the earthquake and its after tremors and was still undergoing repairs in AD 79 when Vesuvius famously erupted.

And thus a very unlikely postulation about a single mosaic becomes
"... Pompeii mosaics were only exposed for a century or so before the eruption, but exhibit very heavy wear patterns."
, which is clearly nonsense to anyone with any knowledge of Pompeii mosaics, like so many of Andrew's assertions.

Taphoi wrote:
However, I am glad that we have finally agreed here in Pothos that Edson's paper does not prove that Olympias's tomb was at Pydna. :D
We have not "finally agreed" on this at all, since no-one said such a thing in the first place. :roll: But on any 'reasonableness' or 'balance of probability' basis the likelihood is that the first Olympias wife of Philip ( formerly Myrtle) is buried somewhere around Pydna, where she was captured and almost certainly executed by Cassander, notwithstanding the red herring of Olympias II of Epirus, daughter of Pyrrhus, who lived in the 3 C BC, and has no known association with Pydna whatever.

I have the feeling that we shall all be enjoying 'schadenfreude' at Andrew's expense when he is hoist on the petard of his oh-so-many public media pronouncements about the likelihood of the Katsas tomb being that of Olympias. :lol:
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:I'll finish with a quote from the occasionally maligned Dr. Dorothy King. She posted the following on her blog on September 20th. Not only did she suggest much which was revealed yesterday, she also answers your question as to why not Roman "mortar". Oh, and she mentions the 3rd century coins being found in the superstructure.
The soil back-fill and the walls that sealed each chamber were almost certainly contemporary; soil was probably used instead of concrete as it meant the tomb could be sealed and the roof supported, but not necessarily lost as would be the case with Roman concrete. The walls would have been necessary to hold in the soil, to stop it pouring out. I assume that there are small finds within the soil which will help date this - bits of pottery, dropped coins, etc - but I am not aware of them.

My guess is that the architecture was not strong enough to support the mound, and that after an earthquake it began to cave in, so the soil was used to support the structure.

The destruction of the superstructure was initially thought to be Byzantine iconoclasm, then coins were found in this destruction layer which were presented at the conference, and which I am pretty sure put this in the early 3rd century AD. So the possibility was discussed that the superstructure was used to dredge swamp land by the river to combat malaria, but this was also set aside.
I believe that Dorothy King was referring to the lion monument atop the mound as "superstructure". They had not excavated the sphinx entrance when she attended the seminars at which the coins were mentioned. Certainly nobody else has said anything about a superstructure in front of the sphinxes. The concept would appear to be somewhat inconsistent with that arch over the sphinxes, which looks very much like the boundary of the monument.
An even bigger problem for a sealing 5+ centuries after construction is the fact that the paintwork survives on the facade beneath the sphinxes (photo below). It is impossible that such paint should survive 5 centuries of weathering. Furthermore there is no sign of differential weathering between the exterior face and the face somewhat sheltered within the portal. That militates in favour of the sealing having taken place just years after the painting. You might argue that the monument was regularly re-painted, but that would leave a very thick crust of paint after 5 centuries and there is no sign of that in the photos. It is I think important that cases where inferences appear to contradict the evidence should be discussed despite the opposition of some members.
Best wishes,
Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote: It is I think important that cases where inferences appear to contradict the evidence should be discussed despite the opposition of some members.
No. You think it important call into question information not consistent with your (self) painted-into-a-corner position. Discussion is, you see, a two way street at minimum. For you there is only the arrogance of the dogma that is your position; dictation and dismissal its 'discussion'. Then again, perhaps it is best to for you to continue and so allow others, such as Xenophon in a recent post, who are clearly far better versed in aspects of this than yourself (or myself) to point up the manifest shortcomings in your knowledge. It is the least that can be done for the professional archaeologists whose skills and integrity you call into question via your use of this forum in defence of a position as set as Roman concrete.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Andrew, how would you explain the coins from the 3rd century A.D. inside the tomb then? When the tomb was sealed no one could have gotten inside with all that sand and the coins were probably found on the floor level.

As for the colors, they are faded, as are the epistyles or more accurately the part of the cornice above the Karyatids as Mr. Lefantzis pointed out yesterday. The facade in it's original form would have had brighter colors, and the hair of the sphinx, and the karyatids.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:Andrew, how would you explain the coins from the 3rd century A.D. inside the tomb then? When the tomb was sealed no one could have gotten inside with all that sand and the coins were probably found on the floor level.

As for the colors, they are faded, as are the epistyles or more accurately the part of the cornice above the Karyatids as Mr. Lefantzis pointed out yesterday. The facade in it's original form would have had brighter colors, and the hair of the sphinx, and the karyatids.
I would explain any coins of the third century AD confirmed to have been found within the sealing wall erected in front of the sphinxes as very strong evidence for a Roman (or later) sealing. Unfortunately, it is not clear where exactly coins of various dates were found in what was said yesterday, as far as I can tell. There seems to be a lot of ambiguity on the latest date of archaeological material from within that sealing wall. We have only heard about a swan skeleton.

The paint of the facade beneath the sphinxes is not in any worse condition than the paint inside (both are obviously damaged by damp in the sand). This suggests that there was little weathering of the facade, before it was somehow protected from weathering (not more than years, rather than decades or centuries). There should be no survival at all of ancient paint on a surface that has been weathering in the open for 5 to 6 centuries.
Best wishes,
Andrew

PS. Just as examples of the ongoing ambiguities:
Ancient Origins wrote:Archaeologists have now revealed that they had also found coins and pottery inside the chambers, dating back to between the 4th and 2nd centuries BC
ABC News wrote:Coins featuring the face of Alexander the Great have been found at the largest tomb ever unearthed in Greece... The tomb was repeatedly plundered before being sealed off but Ms Peristeri said the team still found several coins around the tomb, including some showing the face of Alexander the Great and some dating back to the third and second century BC.
Where have the 3rd century AD coins gone? These reports could mean Alexander tetradrachms or similar, which were minted between roughly the 4th & 2nd centuries BC and are complicated to date. And what does "around the tomb" mean? Taken literally in means scattered outside the peribolos in English. :?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

'around the tomb' means at various places within the tomb, it is a very common usage. Later Alexanders are quite distinct from lifetime issues and comparison with Price would narrow things further, as to the 3rd century AD coins, they were associated with the crane footings used to dismantle the peribolos by which time the tomb had been sealed and fallen into disrepair, if the coin evidence is third and second century BC as stated above, then dissuetude around the fall of the Macedonian kingdom. I have to agree with Taphoi, however that the evidence has yet to be presented in a clear and systematic way.

Drawing any conclusions from weathering one has not seen is somewhat hopeful; as the technique has not been announced, it may be a fresco where the pigment is painted directly onto fresh plaster which is nigh on indestructable, or it may well have been re-painted, the ancient Greeks had sandpaper (invented by Daidalos, allegedly) and it is usual to sand down a surface before repainting. They did not have oil-based paints which do build up with each coat , first known use in 7th century AD, link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... urope.html
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote: An even bigger problem for a sealing 5+ centuries after construction is the fact that the paintwork survives on the facade beneath the sphinxes (photo below). It is impossible that such paint should survive 5 centuries of weathering. Furthermore there is no sign of differential weathering between the exterior face and the face somewhat sheltered within the portal. You might argue that the monument was regularly re-painted, but that would leave a very thick crust of paint after 5 centuries and there is no sign of that in the photos. It is I think important that cases where inferences appear to contradict the evidence should be discussed despite the opposition of some members.
I am at a loss to understand how you reach the conclusion of a "very thick crust of paint after 5 centuries". Weathering, as you well know, wears away paint, and when the paint has been worn away (and or sanded as has already been mentioned here) and a new coat is applied there is little to no buildup. Five centuries, ten centuries, it doesn't matter. Also, ancient Greek paints were not plasticized modern paints or enamels which have thick coatings. They were all about the pigment. (Sorry agesilaos for duplicating some of your points.)
Taphoi wrote: It is I think important that cases where inferences appear to contradict the evidence should be discussed despite the opposition of some members.
No, "some members" are not opposed to discussion, but they want real discussion and not attempts to discredit others under the guise of debate. Here’s an example from an earlier post of yours:
If they have Roman material from inside the sealing wall erected in front of the sphinxes, then that is conclusive, but in the absence of such material, the sealing date is speculative and probably wrong and much too late.
Here your own inferences do NOT appear to contradict the evidence. The evidence (where the Roman material was found) is unknown to us, however, you include if along with speculative and probably wrong and much too late in the same sentence. The "if" means that you don't know, yet you are still willing to speculate and in a manner which is dismissive and insulting to the archaeologists. You are not an archaeologist yet you present yourself as knowing better than the professionals by the artful construction of your sentences. Such remarks do not make for a "discussion", Taphoi, they demonstrate grandstanding. And that is why members are objecting.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Here is the 2 hours long audio with the questions from the reporters and answers from the team:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz4gJKNdyhw
Of course it's all in Greek. As i have said before there are things that have not been mentioned in the news media, as each reporter or blogger creates a summary of the things that he or she think are important. For example Mrs Peristeri in one answer starts talking about coins of the 2nd century B.C and from the 3rd century A.D, and in another answer she mentions coins of ATG, and that's the part that the news media picked up.

31:00 in the video Mrs Peristeri answers about findings in the tomb, and i quote:
In the main chamber we do not have grave goods, they have swept them away or maybe they were somewhere else, the geo-survey that we are doing may give us more info about what there might be around, but in the other areas we have pottery and coins that are being cleaned and studied. We simply haven't shown them to you (here there is a buzz in the room from that latest statement). The dating is, we have in the last quarter of the fourth century B.C the one phase, we have coins from the 2nd century B.C that is the era with the "last Macedonians" (my remark, she means before the Roman invasion) that protect their monument, and from the Roman years from the 3rd century A.D
Then she says that the monument was open for visitation and that there are 17 steps that go down but on the outside that part is destroyed which might have had further access, we haven't seen it yet, and we are still looking for elements, we are in a part of the excavation that still has a lot to go.
Here the coordinator of the presentation says that: she (Mrs Peristeri) said to you that the part in the perivolos with the opening with the stairs was enclosed.
Mr Lefantzis earlier said that there was a shelter on top of the entrance, so it was protected.

At around 44:00 in another question about whether they have found erythromorfi type (red and black paint) pottery which would further help with the dating, Mrs Peristeri says that they have found a lot of pottery with melamvafi (black paint) and coins of Alexander the Great. That is the part that the a lot of the news media chose to emphasize on.
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