The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:
* The Greek/Macedonian debate
* Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones ;-)
* Foul or inappropriate language

Moderator: pothos moderators

User avatar
ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

Image
...and just a few kilometers down the road, you reach the site (across the WWII metal allied bridge) where the Amphipolis Lion currently stands...
As proud as ever :wink:

Image
Here it stands...

Image
The proposed reconstruction by O. Broneer

Image
The caption describing the Lion

Image
and again the map that we show before..
AAA
User avatar
ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

Image
There is a dotted mottif running along the edge of some of the marble pieces... It seems not that technical (and precise) to be of ancient origin, but it is found in only a few pieces....

Image
...here on one of the marble pieces topping the base...

Image
...and here on one of the pieces lying on the ground....
AAA
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Thanks for the vote Hiphys but it was Zebedee who first suggested, and stuck with, Rhesos, hope he got his bet on :lol: I still favour an Antigonid mausoleum.

Ariadne, Antipatros could be a candidate and maybe the old duffer was buried old style in a cist; but if Kassandros, who resented the Old Rope passing him over, had built a tomb for larger than a royal monument for him, the sources would probably have mentioned it as an instance of the son's kingly pretensions. Only my opinion of course.

Good photos Iapetos.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
User avatar
Efstathios
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Athens,Greece

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

So, it seems unlikely that none of the diadochi or Antipatros would fund the construction of this monument-tomb. That leaves us with one person that would, and it was Alexander. It fits the dating and also supports it. If this was the heroon and tomb for Hephaestion then he would have given the order for construction at around 324 and by the time he died, Deinocrates (if he was the architect) would have already constructed a large part of it, so the diadochi wouldn't cancel it. There is also the rebuilding of the Temple of Artemis tavropolos in Amphipolis which was included in Alexander's wishes, and it was rebuild as we can see from that inscription of Antipatros from Thessaloniki, probably by Deinocrates too.

And the temple of Artemis was linked to the protection of the fleet, of which the ship-builder was Hepaestion who also was the first Admiral before Nearchus. So, this is a hypothesis, with speculations of course, but it is plausible as the various elements seem to tie in well.

Also, about the decoration being Roman style, there is nothing in this monument suggesting Roman. The Karyatids' Chitonio angle (oblique? how would you translate λοξό?) is the same as of Karyatids of Acropolis from Solon's time, archaic. Their inclusion in the decoration of the tomb could have something to do with the many Athenians that settled there after the Lamian war of 322, and maybe a possible connection of Hephaestion's ancestry from Athens.
Last edited by Efstathios on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1941.
User avatar
ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

Image
A peribolos piece...

Image
a.... sarcophagus, of unknown origin & time, lying at the back of the domoi collection...

Image
More domoi....

Image
and more...

Image
different pieces...

Image
the whole collection....

Image
It wasn't there in 1978 when we visited the Lion, after the great Thessaloniki earthquake (7.1 on the Richter scale).
And as we are in the topic of earthquakes. I've been through quite a few in my short life (Greece is verrrrrry shaky as you know), but at no time have I seen things "jumping up" and out of containers... Most things during an earthquake, usually follow the shortest (and quickest) route to the center of the Earth... so they drop...
@Agesilaos
There is no way bones could jump up (1.8 meters) and out of a tomb. The magnitude of an earthquake that could cause that would have leveled the whole of Macedonia (at least the middle & eastern part of it) and most of the rest of Greece....
AAA
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Thank you for the pictures Iapetos. Good point, well illustrated, on the likelihood of flooding.

re. construction of tomb. Is it so farfetched for Cassander to have something built? He funded the walls of Thebes. And if not Cassander himself, then Amphipolis seems to have boomed with the return of Macedonian veterans so could it no be a much more local affair? Is that so unreasonable for a city clearly on the up?

re. Rhesos. It ticks boxes. Whether it will continue to do so.. we'll see. Bet is on, but it isn't paying for Christmas just yet. And will be unlikely to unless something very, very clear turns up. Not fanatical about it in any case so it's there to be shot down when it stops ticking boxes.
User avatar
Taphoi
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Bristol, England, UK
Contact:

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:
Taphoi wrote: It is just a bit strange to get your information on Hephaistion's funeral from just one of the half dozen accounts and the briefest account by a notoriously bad epitomator too. Here's an idea: why not ignore modern historical re-writes by people who have not even bothered to read all the ancient accounts of Hephaistion's funeral and go and read all the ancient accounts instead and make up your own mind about what happened?
Taphoi wrote: ...
I also quote all the sources that I know of (in English translation) on the subject of the death and funeral of Hephaistion.
The Latin sources had the problem that Pyra in Greek means a) the funeral pyre, b) the monument to the dead on the site of the funeral pyre and c) a fire altar (possibly commemorating a dead hero). Precisely how you translated it was therefore slightly ambiguous. The Greek sources seem to have used it to mean all three things (sometimes simultaneously).
So ... you know for a fact that the gentleman Efstathios refers to - and presumably all modern historical writers who disagree with your viewpoint - "have not even bothered to read all the ancient accounts of Hephaistion's funeral"? I'd love to know how you know that? No, really ... I would.
You are taking my comments out of context by ignoring my preceding post in the thread where I wrote:
Even McKechnie does not say that Hephaistion was not cremated: he just wants to relocate the event to Ecbatana, even though Arrian, Diodorus and Polyaenus all explicitly place the funeral in Babylon and no ancient account puts it in Ecbatana. The reason McKechnie wants to do this is that he thinks that the tearing down of a stretch of wall in Babylon to make the pyre base and the removal of crenellations from the battlements of Ecbatana must be the same event. But he does not reference (has not noticed?) Plutarch, Pelopidas 34, where it is clear that the battlements were wrecked as a parallel to the hair shearing to make them look as dishevelled as the mourners and that it had nothing to do with building a pyre base.
So it was McKechnie that I meant had specifically not read one of the sources on Hephaistion's funeral. And one that is crucial to the matter of the wall demolitions on which he bases his hypothesis too.
Nevertheless, there is a suspicion that somebody who is choosing to highlight Justin as their principal source on Hephaistion's funeral and has not realised that he is translating pyra rather arbitrarily as tumulus has not properly read all the relevant material before pronouncing.
Best wishes,
Andrew
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Not quite what I was thinking, rather another example of the 'Brazil nut effect'; once the wooden coffin had rotted away, along with the flesh, the bones would be free in the fill and, since the stones did not seal the grave - two were missing, in the report I read - the bones could migrate out of the grave. not in one mad rush but gradually as the earthquakes came and went, until the fill solidified, if it did. I can assure that I am well aware of gravity and how it works having been a victim on several occaisions :lol: Though generally as a result of mixing chemistry with physics!

Did you see any 'monograms' on the peribolos blocks?

I doubt any bets will be being paid out for some time, Zebedee, Kassandros could have built it, but why no record? Amphipolis did boom, as you say and Aigai fell into decline, I wonder if the Antigonids did not have something to do with it; Gonatas does not seem to have founded a capital, as Kassandros, Lysimachos, Antigonos Monopthalmos, Seleucus etc did. Naturally, I didn't want to steal your thunder, no one else seems to have considered Rhesos, certainly I had not.

Hopefully, this week we will finally get the dating evidence and further details of the skeleton.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
User avatar
Efstathios
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Athens,Greece

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Nice photos Iapetos.
Zebedee, no individual could have likely being able to fund this monument, and i don't see how some of them could have co-funded it. In the press release they said it was funded by the state. Someone ordered to bring "half of the island of Thasos" to Amphipolis, the marble quantity is large.

In the meantime, some days ago, and when people had started talking about which General it could be, the Minister of Culture "drops the bomb" that they do not exclude anyone, it could as well be Alexander. Mrs. Mendoni also said that the sources that we have for that era of 300 B.C. are 500-600 years later, maybe suggesting that what they have so far from the archaeological finds does not agree with the sources. This dig has been used politically since August. It is unique in a lot of ways. Since the P.M visited the dig, the management of the press started, photos showing certain things and nothing more, rumors about architraves that have inscriptions or paintings being secretly moved to the museum e.t.c. All these things make people speculate and make scenarios about everything, and the Alexander scenario is still open because of all of the above. But from the certainty of the archaeological team about the dating and the architect, which has created a turmoil and fuss in the archaeological and academic community, it is possible that they also have a good idea of who was buried there.
"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1941.
User avatar
Efstathios
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Athens,Greece

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Nevertheless, there is a suspicion that somebody who is choosing to highlight Justin as their principal source on Hephaistion's funeral and has not realised that he is translating pyra rather arbitrarily as tumulus has not properly read all the relevant material before pronouncing.
Prof. Mavroyiannis did say that this depends on how one translates the text. So he is aware of the translation issue. He made a hypothesis. I only quoted what he said. But tumulunque does not translate into pyra, if that was the case then tumulus that is the english word derived from the latin could also have the meaning of pyra, but you don't use that word do you? A tumulus is a mound of earth raised and stones raised above a tomb. In this case the original translator from latin to english did not "say" pyre but tomb. And it doesn't really matter who is the source as we are talking about a certain wording here that probably has nothing to do with the credibility of the author. We know that a "book" about Alexander's and Hephaestion's burials existed but it has not survived the ages. So Justin could have used that as his source for Hephaestion's tomb.
"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1941.
User avatar
ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

@agesilaos
I can accept bones moving up the soil column, but these were found outside the physical boundaries of the cyst... So I don't accept natural/physical causes as the reason...
AAA
ariadne
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:32 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by ariadne »

@agesilaos
I don't say Cassander may had buildt that tomb for his father, I say he may had used for his father the tomb buildt for Alexander or Haphaestion. A perfect act of usurpation !
The sources don't talk about that, but we know most of them are lost.
And if the tomb originally was created for A or H, I think it will be difficult to know wich of both it was.

Amitiées
Ariadne.
User avatar
amyntoros
Somatophylax
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:51 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Zebedee wrote:
Taphoi wrote: Hopefully, the people organising the DNA investigations understand the need to take DNA swabs of everyone who has handled the remains in order to build confidence that some random individual's DNA is not reported as belonging to Philip's family or the family of the Amphipolis tomb occupant.
Prof. Brown and co. are very competent at dealing with ancient DNA. Prof.Brown very literally has written the textbook.
On the Amphipolis remains, there was the following news info on the 14th concerning moving the skeleton:
The discovery of a skeleton in the tomb at Amphipolis, at the last moment monopolized interest, obscuring the difficult task of the excavation team that uncovered the find.
The process to remove the bones and fragments was a very difficult undertaking, with the bone matter being treated surgically to avoid any contamination.
The bones were removed along with the surrounding soil, so that they would not be touched by human hands. The team members wore surgical gloves and took care to place the bones with the surrounding soil on trays that were then covered in plastic, and then taken to Amphipolis museum.
The bones will not be cleaned there, but at a specialized laboratory that will undertake to decode the DNA in order to synthesize some profile of the deceased.
According to statements by culture minister Kostas Tasoulas the examination of the skeleton from Amphipolis will be undertaken by a team of Greek scientists.
So yes, everyone involved in the Amphipolis excavation/exhumation is obviously very competent. Didn't think it was in doubt. :)

Best regards,
Amyntoros

Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

My understanding is that the cyst was not fully sealed, Iapetos, so that some bones below the opening could have moved out of the grave naturally; better details of how the remains were disposed could easily disprove this of course.

Ariadne, I see what you mean but if Kassandros took over Alexander's tomb I think we would hear about it as the sources we do have were hostile to him and that would be an act of supreme hubris; aside from the fact that Alexander would not have a tomb at Amphipolis. An unused tomb for Hephaistion? Possible, given Alexander's desire to do it big and since Hephaistion was not an important figure to the historians of the Diadochoi it might pass notice...
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

It would be interesting if the monument is linked to Haphaestion (even if he is not buried there) and Dinocrates is really the architect. That would then cast even more doubts about Haphaestion's magnificent pyre since I gather that then Dinocrates, as architect of both an enormous pyre at Babylon and a magnificent tomb at Amphipolis, all within few months between the deaths of these two, should also be credited with discovery of teleportation technology. Lets see how solid this Dinocrates link proves to be. Ms. Peristeri will make a presentation in Athens on the 29th in front of archaeologists. Maybe she finally receives credible questions. In any case, if it is really Alexander who ordered this, as Efstathios assumes, the chronology is correct and Dinocates is the architect, the problem described above is still relevant.

On a similar matter, when we say Dinocrates was the architect of Alexandria, what was his task really? Just lay down a general plan and then leave it up to a team of engineers to implement it (so he could take up several tasks at a time)? Did he have to overlook constructions? Did he ever visit Alexandria after Alexander's death? E.g. Dinocrates appears to have been at Babylon during Hephaestion's death, while Alexandria was being built. We also talk about the tomb at Amphipolis taking several years to be constructed, but how long would the design and the planning of such a construction take?
Post Reply