The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

In the 29th there is going be to an official press release regarding the excavation, so maybe the dating evidence will be included there, or in an archaeological convention. I will try and translate the important parts in prof. Mavroyiannis presentation for the non greek speakers.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Paralus »

You're a good bloke Stathi.The 29th huh? Yes, let's hope it's a 'summary' presentation of the finds and evidence so far. Pity the archeologists aren't a bit more like Philip: a year round campaigning season...
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
The problem is not that the techniques were not sufficiently sensitive in previous experiments, but that the DNA molecules are carbonised by the heat. It is like charring toast - there is only carbon mush left with all the volatiles evacuated. No technique will find DNA where there is none left.
I think you have missed my point. Previous techniques work best on dental material, albumin etc.However. DNA can be recovered from " fire victims exhibiting extensive charring," ( see my previous post). In this instance, the skeleton of Philip II has NOT been turned to 'carbon mush' and it is more or less intact - so DNA may be present. There are now at least 3 different ways of extracting DNA from degraded skeletal material, with each used depending on the degree of degradation. Perhaps it is these sorts of 'new' techniques that will allow DNA extraction from Philip's skeletal remains, relatively intact as they are, and perhaps this is what Manchester have in mind. As I said, we will just have to wait and see.......both the Greeks and they must think there is at least a prospect of DNA recovery.

P.S : Some further web research reveals that indeed new improved methods of extracting DNA have been developed in the last ten years, including ways to obtain it from cremated victims. One such involves sterilising the external surfaces ( to eliminate contamination ) and then drilling into the bone to obtain 1-3 grams of bone material, and then using a much improved and new method of extracting and analysing same, which produces excellent results ( obviously varying on a case by case basis). This is but one of several methods, and given the state of Philip's skeleton might be appropriate, though obviously success can not be predicted until the testing is actually done.......
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

There are a lot of rumors in Greek forums and blogs about a second entrance for some time now. Based on mr. Polymenakos 3d presentation showing the two tunnels, the second one should be in the spot where they haven't removed the dirt yet. It's on the right side of the second image. There is also a guard post there.

Image

Image

Mrs Peristeri said that the perivolos still holds a lot of secrets, so maybe when the dig continues a second entrance, if there is one, will be revealed.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Xenophon wrote:Previous techniques work best on dental material, albumin etc.However. DNA can be recovered from " fire victims exhibiting extensive charring," ( see my previous post). In this instance, the skeleton of Philip II has NOT been turned to 'carbon mush' and it is more or less intact - so DNA may be present. There are now at least 3 different ways of extracting DNA from degraded skeletal material, with each used depending on the degree of degradation.
Unfortunately, survival of bone fragments does not provide any indication of survival of DNA. The rigidity of bones comes from the inorganic mineral calcium phosphate in the chemical arrangement termed calcium hydroxylapatite. That will survive at much higher temperatures than associated DNA.

The reason DNA is obtainable from fire victims is that core flesh has been thermally insulated by external flesh long enough for its temperature not to reach the 300 Celsius or so at which DNA structure is destroyed, so that comparison does not really provide much hope for cremated remains, because ancient cremations lasted long enough for all the flesh to be burnt off: that was the whole point.

I do not actually disagree with you on this. It is worth trying new techniques just in case. I agree that there is an outside chance. But I am just putting the case as to why this will be incredibly difficult and plagued by contamination issues.

We have excellent accounts of how hot the fire was in ancient cremations from the very well documented case of Hephaistion's funeral. For example:
Aelian, Varia Historia 7.8 wrote:When Hephaistion died Alexander threw armour on to his pyre, and melted down with the corpse gold, silver, and clothing much prized by the Persians.
So that pyre was hot enough to melt silver (962 Celsius) and gold (1064 Celsius). There is unfortunately little chance of recovering DNA in such a context.

Best wishes,
Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

We have excellent accounts of how hot the fire was in ancient cremations from the very well documented case of Hephaistion's funeral.


Surely not by Aelian. Who said that "Leonnatus and Menelaus, who enjoyed hunting, had nets a hundred stades long".

And how about the pyre of Philip? If the fire was so hot to melt gold then how come his remains are not in ashes?

In the end of the paragraph Aelian also says: "Note that Hephaestion died at Ecbatana. A story circulates that these ceremonies, while planned for Hephaestion, were carried out for Alexander on his death, because mourning for the young man was not yet completed when death overtook Alexander."

Aelian himself wrote about stories circulating, so we can establish that his sources were not clear about the matter, and the Varia Historia was not written as a history book as we can see from other parts of it.

https://sites.google.com/site/alexander ... a-historia
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

This is a rough translation which includes many technical terms, from the part that regards dating of a talk with prof. Mavroyiannis in a radio station at Cyprus from September. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR_uG0fMYUQ

The cove (arch) of Kasta tomb is constructed from oblong domoi (plural of δόμος) as the cove in Philips' tomb in Vergina which is older. The facade in tomb of Philip is of temple shape where as here (in Kasta tomb) the facades are embedded in the cove and create an arc. But the main characteristic is that this is a new architectural type as the underground tomb is under a mound that in the perimeter is surrounded by stone work. The masonry of the wall can be dated with a relative accuracy, it is a pseudo-isostructural (ψευδο-ισόδομη) wall masonry, unequal contour (ανισοϋψής) domoi that alternate and their front has been worked with the chisel and have a smooth texture. The joints have millimeter accuracy. There are similar samples of wall masonry, one of which is the decoration inside the temple (εποπτεία) for the Samothraki sacraments that is dated according to inscriptions to 323-317 B.C. There are other examples too.


He wonders why other archaeologists do not make similar observations about the dating. In the same talk he mentions the caryuatids being archaic style from Solon's era 560-510 B.C. and a possible connection with the 12.000 Athenians that settled in Amphipolis after the Lamian war, and that Antipatros allowed them be to be governed with an oligarchic regime similar to the one of Solon. Then he goes on to explain why the tomb could be of Hephaestion, a part which i will also try and summarize later.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:
We have excellent accounts of how hot the fire was in ancient cremations from the very well documented case of Hephaistion's funeral.


Surely not by Aelian. Who said that "Leonnatus and Menelaus, who enjoyed hunting, had nets a hundred stades long".

And how about the pyre of Philip? If the fire was so hot to melt gold then how come his remains are not in ashes?

In the end of the paragraph Aelian also says: "Note that Hephaestion died at Ecbatana. A story circulates that these ceremonies, while planned for Hephaestion, were carried out for Alexander on his death, because mourning for the young man was not yet completed when death overtook Alexander."

Aelian himself wrote about stories circulating, so we can establish that his sources were not clear about the matter, and the Varia Historia was not written as a history book as we can see from other parts of it.

https://sites.google.com/site/alexander ... a-historia
Aelian also says that Alexander cut his hair short in mourning for Hephaistion. Do you think he was still in the planning stages to do that when he died? It is quite clear that what Aelian actually means is that the funeral ceremonies for Hephaistion were still carrying on in Babylon when Alexander fell ill and died, so some of them then carried on for the king.
There is nothing so bizarre in Aelian as the talking snakes that led Alexander around in the Libyan desert in the account of Arrian, which he suggests that he took from his main source, Ptolemy. Will you therefore disbelieve everything that Arrian wrote too?
Even McKechnie does not say that Hephaistion was not cremated: he just wants to relocate the event to Ecbatana, even though Arrian, Diodorus and Polyaenus all explicitly place the funeral in Babylon and no ancient account puts it in Ecbatana. The reason McKechnie wants to do this is that he thinks that the tearing down of a stretch of wall in Babylon to make the pyre base and the removal of crenellations from the battlements of Ecbatana must be the same event. But he does not reference (has not noticed?) Plutarch, Pelopidas 34, where it is clear that the battlements were wrecked as a parallel to the hair shearing to make them look as dishevelled as the mourners and that it had nothing to do with building a pyre base.
Best wishes,
Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

There is nothing so bizarre in Aelian as the talking snakes that led Alexander around in the Libyan desert in the account of Arrian, which he suggests that he took from his main source, Ptolemy. Will you therefore disbelieve everything that Arrian wrote too?
We have discussed about the sources many times here in the forum. Arrian is the most credible one as he tries to be objective with his Alexander's Anabasis. Aelian could as well have been writing a novel rather than historical events. Sure there could be some things that we can take from Aelian as possible to have happened, but with lots of grains of salt.

As professor Mavroyiannis takes from Justin that Alexander build a tomb for Hephaestion that costed 12.000 talents (Justin 12.12.12.) Justin does not mention the pyre, but a tomb, and then that Alexander ordered for Hephaestion to be worshipped as a god and hero.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Also of interest, professor Mavroyannis says that Justin in the original latin text says that Alexander build a "tumulum" for Hephaestion, a tumulous! If one can find and post the original latin text we can see that.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:As professor Mavroyiannis takes from Justin that Alexander build a tomb for Hephaestion that costed 12.000 talents (Justin 12.12.12.) Justin does not mention the pyre, but a tomb, and then that Alexander ordered for Hephaestion to be worshipped as a god and hero.
It is just a bit strange to get your information on Hephaistion's funeral from just one of the half dozen accounts and the briefest account by a notoriously bad epitomator too. Here's an idea: why not ignore modern historical re-writes by people who have not even bothered to read all the ancient accounts of Hephaistion's funeral and go and read all the ancient accounts instead and make up your own mind about what happened?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

12 Quem contra decus regium Alexander diu luxit tumulumque ei duodecim milium talentum fecit eumque post mortem coli ut deum iussit.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:Also of interest, professor Mavroyannis says that Justin in the original latin text says that Alexander build a "tumulum" for Hephaestion, a tumulous! If one can find and post the original latin text we can see that.
As a matter of fact I quote the Latin of Justin on this matter in my own book on this. It reads: Dum haec aguntur, unus ex amicis eius Hephaestion decedit, dotibus primo formae pueritiaeque, mox obsequiis regi percarus. Quem contra decus regium Alexander diu luxit tumulumque ei duodecim milium talentum fecit eumque post mortem coli ut deum iussit.
I also quote all the sources that I know of (in English translation) on the subject of the death and funeral of Hephaistion.
The Latin sources had the problem that Pyra in Greek means a) the funeral pyre, b) the monument to the dead on the site of the funeral pyre and c) a fire altar (possibly commemorating a dead hero). Precisely how you translated it was therefore slightly ambiguous. The Greek sources seem to have used it to mean all three things (sometimes simultaneously).
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

I have read the sources but i only know little latin so these ones i have read in English or Greek translations. The thing here is that Justin uses the word "tumulumque" which means only one thing, a tumulus. Since the tumulus is something very different and specific than a monument on the site of a pyre i cannot see how Justin would use this word and not something more appropriate in latin. Also, we know from the rest of the sources that there was a big pyre in Babylon and it's possible decorative elements (more on that and how it relates to Amphipolis later). However there is no mention of what happened to that pyre and if Hephaestion was buried there or elsewhere. I think that Justin here clearly indicates a mound that was built somewhere for Hephaestion. Unless the romans used the word "tumulus" to suggest other things too.
Last edited by Efstathios on Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote: It is just a bit strange to get your information on Hephaistion's funeral from just one of the half dozen accounts and the briefest account by a notoriously bad epitomator too. Here's an idea: why not ignore modern historical re-writes by people who have not even bothered to read all the ancient accounts of Hephaistion's funeral and go and read all the ancient accounts instead and make up your own mind about what happened?
Taphoi wrote: ...
I also quote all the sources that I know of (in English translation) on the subject of the death and funeral of Hephaistion.
The Latin sources had the problem that Pyra in Greek means a) the funeral pyre, b) the monument to the dead on the site of the funeral pyre and c) a fire altar (possibly commemorating a dead hero). Precisely how you translated it was therefore slightly ambiguous. The Greek sources seem to have used it to mean all three things (sometimes simultaneously).
So ... you know for a fact that the gentleman Efstathios refers to - and presumably all modern historical writers who disagree with your viewpoint - "have not even bothered to read all the ancient accounts of Hephaistion's funeral"? I'd love to know how you know that? No, really ... I would.

It is not common practice in an academic paper or book to publish translations of all sources the writer has read because (a) it is assumed ... no it is understood that the writer has knowledge of all accounts, and (b) printing out all the sources would double/triple/quadruple the length of a paper or book and (c) would imply that the reader himself has no knowledge of said sources. If a writer is directing a book at those entirely new to the study of the subject then it could be acceptable to quote more than usual, although even then it is more common to put references in the notes and allow the reader, if he wants, to look them up. (Plus I'm not sure that a publisher would want a manuscript aimed at only those new to a subject.) That you chose to quote all the sources in your books is just that - your choice. I do not deny that your readers welcome this, but it is not desirable for all. And this is the important part that I would prefer you not to ignore - just because you quote everything in its entirety doesn't mean that you - and only you - are aware of all the sources, whereas various academics are not. You must know that, Andrew. You must. And yet you fold in these ad hominem arguments as if they are the meat in "meat and potatoes". I'm not going to let this go without comment.

Also, given that you yourself have written above that the Greek sources have used pyra to mean at least three things, you must also be aware that this very understanding leaves the relevant passages open to interpretation.

Best regards,
Amyntoros

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