The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Efstathios
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Efstathios »

Actually professor Mavrogiannis explained why Hephaestion could have been transfered to Amphipolis very well in one lecture back in September. He also gave hints for the dating of the tomb in Amphipolis being near 325-320 B.C through architectural elements and comparisons and wondered why other archaeologists that are waiting for dating evidence didn't do the same. What he says is very plausible.

On another note, does anyone have any idea why the will send (or have already done so) genetic material from the remains to be compared with Philips? Cause there is one or maybe two possible scenarios i can think of.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by amyntoros »

Efstathios wrote:
On another note, does anyone have any idea why the will send (or have already done so) genetic material from the remains to be compared with Philips? Cause there is one or maybe two possible scenarios i can think of.
Whatever your possible scenarios you've probably hit the nail on the head. Sending genetic material to be compared with Philip's might identify a familial relationship - or rule it out. I didn't know that they had done this (or planned to) though. You're obviously getting faster and better information in Greece. Thank you and all other Greek members for keeping us updated, making translations, etc.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:
Efstathios wrote:
On another note, does anyone have any idea why the will send (or have already done so) genetic material from the remains to be compared with Philips? Cause there is one or maybe two possible scenarios i can think of.
Whatever your possible scenarios you've probably hit the nail on the head. Sending genetic material to be compared with Philip's might identify a familial relationship - or rule it out. I didn't know that they had done this (or planned to) though. You're obviously getting faster and better information in Greece. Thank you and all other Greek members for keeping us updated, making translations, etc.
Is somebody saying they have obtained DNA from Philip II's cremated bones, please? If so they've kept it very quiet until now. It will be a scientific triumph to have obtained good DNA from such heavily cremated remains. Deserves a Nobel Prize considering it is the DNA of Alexander :!: (Or could this just be more disinformation? :()
Pothosians should be able to get to the bottom of this covert and groundbreaking DNA recovery from ashes programme or else embarrass the guilty at least :)
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Efstathios »

It is pending approval from the state since August, i will post more details later, it was on the news here.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:It is pending approval from the state since August, i will post more details later, it was on the news here.
Interesting. I am hearing that Professor Paliadeli (very much associated with Vergina) has said something like this today. But extreme caution is advisable. Previous attempts to obtain DNA from even modern cremations have been very unsuccessful. Lots of DNA signal from the remains, but virtually all due to contamination of the ashes. See here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... JhCbSaz3VQ
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

According to here: http://news247.gr/eidiseis/psixagogia/p ... 41294.html

Professor Antikas said that genetic material from Philip II as well as from the tomb of the Prince and tomb I was send to the University of Manchester back in August for dna extraction (y-dna). What i gathered from his interview in the news is that a sample of genetic material from the skeleton from Kasta tomb will also be send to Manchester, and the analysis of the dna from Vergina (if they can extract it) and the comparison with the one from Amphipolis will be done here in Greece.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

There has been an important and official update today on Greek TV which is also reported here: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/11 ... -identity/

Greece's General Secretary of Culture Lina Mendoni has said:

a) The excavation of the tomb has ceased, because the archaeologists have reached natural, undisturbed soil.
b) The skeleton was not cremated
c) There is no official confirmation of age or sex of the occupant at this time and there are no findings other than those presented by the Ministry of Culture

Hopefully, the people organising the DNA investigations understand the need to take DNA swabs of everyone who has handled the remains in order to build confidence that some random individual's DNA is not reported as belonging to Philip's family or the family of the Amphipolis tomb occupant.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

From what i have gathered from previous statements the dig will continue in a few months according to what they find in the new geo-tomography. Now it's time for them to take a well deserved break. Mrs Peristeri said a few days ago that the perivolos has still a lot of secrets. Aside from the perivolos they will also continue excavating the mound. The plan is to restore the whole structure in it's original form, maybe with the lion on top, after they see what else there is to find, as they did with Vergina.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote: Hopefully, the people organising the DNA investigations understand the need to take DNA swabs of everyone who has handled the remains in order to build confidence that some random individual's DNA is not reported as belonging to Philip's family or the family of the Amphipolis tomb occupant.
Prof. Brown and co. are very competent at dealing with ancient DNA. Prof.Brown very literally has written the textbook.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
But extreme caution is advisable. Previous attempts to obtain DNA from even modern cremations have been very unsuccessful. Lots of DNA signal from the remains, but virtually all due to contamination of the ashes.
Modern cremations are rather different to ancient ones - the temperatures are higher (1,000-1,500 degrees c.) and of longer duration ( several hours) than in the past. In addition, when the remains including fragments of bone are removed, modern morticians grind all these particles to the fine powder that is commonly seen deposited in urns. The report Taphoi refers to points out that probably most of the contamination occurs during the handling and grinding process.

Philip II's remains are rather different in that his body was burnt in an oven , rather than on an open pyre. It may have reached temperatures as high as 900 degrees c and the cremation was probably 60-90 minutes rather than several hours. The result was that the skeleton remained almost intact, albeit with fractures and warping of the skull bones consistent with the corpse being burnt fleshed. So does this increase the prospect of DNA being recovered ?

Alas, it would seem not. Experimentation has focused on the correlations between heat and the preservation of
DNA, dental pulp and albumin. Tsuchimochi et al. (2002) found that DNA amplification and
typing of dental pulp was successful up to a temperature of 300C but not at higher temperatures.[The DNA sample which came from "Myrtis", the 11 year old girl who died of typhoid fever in the Great Plague of Athens in 430 BC linked in Efstathios' post came from dental pulp, but she was not cremated.]
Duffy et al. (1991) described a procedure to facilitate sex chromatin counts from tooth pulp cells
but noted that the extent and duration of heat as well as the extent of flesh present affect it.
Cattaneo et al. (1994) added that human albumin survives cremation up to temperatures of 300C
but no higher. Bone integrity and exposure to water affect protein survival in such cases (Cattaneo
et al. 1995). Although Sanjantila et al. (1991) reported successful DNA typing on all 26 samples
from 10 fire victims exhibiting extensive charring, Cattaneo et al. (1999) reported that no mitochondrial
DNA samples could be amplified in bone experiments with temperatures reaching 800 to 1200C.

Since Philip II was cremated at a temperature of up to 900 C, on the face of it, it would seem impossible to recover mitochondrial or other DNA. Taphoi would seem to be correct in urging caution about the possibility of results.

Yet the scientists at Manchester, the world's premier facility for this sort of thing, are of course well aware of this but clearly would not be taking on the task if they believed success was impossible. Have techniques improved in the last 10 years or so, so as to make DNA recovery from cremated remains possible ?

Contamination from handling the remains should not be an issue. It can be eliminated by taking a sample from the interior, by drilling into a tooth or bone, so taking DNA from all the archaeologists etc should not be necessary.

I guess we can but wait and see......................
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Xenophon wrote:Contamination from handling the remains should not be an issue. It can be eliminated by taking a sample from the interior, by drilling into a tooth or bone, so taking DNA from all the archaeologists etc should not be necessary.
It would be a wise precaution, especially in the case of the cremated remains, which have been handled a lot and have been lying around in labs for a long time. There is the possibility of insects carrying human DNA from the exterior to the interior, for example. The sampling is just a 1 second swabbing of the interior of the cheek, so no trouble to anyone.
I think you are slightly missing the point in wondering whether more advanced techniques will reveal cremated DNA. The problem is not that the techniques were not sufficiently sensitive in previous experiments, but that the DNA molecules are carbonised by the heat. It is like charring toast - there is only carbon mush left with all the volatiles evacuated. No technique will find DNA where there is none left.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

But I think there may be some hope still of a DNA signature for Philip II. It is just that cremated bones are a dubious place to look. However, the organic linings of his helmet and cuirass and similar might furnish some faint hope of success. Let's hope they have worked that out. Let's hope somebody stored bits from those linings in a well-labelled plastic bag/box back in 1977. It may be a faint hope though. :(
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by delos13 »

Efstathios wrote:Actually professor Mavrogiannis explained why Hephaestion could have been transfered to Amphipolis very well in one lecture back in September. He also gave hints for the dating of the tomb in Amphipolis being near 325-320 B.C through architectural elements and comparisons and wondered why other archaeologists that are waiting for dating evidence didn't do the same.
I am very interested to read more on the topic but can't find this lecture anywhere online. Can anybody provide a link, if such exists? I don't have access to JSTOR. From this August, when the excavations became the subject of numerous articles in press, there were, how should I say it, promises and hints from the different specialist on the subject about the basis for the dating of the tomb to the period right after Alexander's death. But now, when it seems, the work on the tomb entered the stage of preservations, there is still no explanation from any authorities how the dating was achieved. Anybody here can shed light on the subject?

One more question. The decorations found in the tomb during the last days, when the skeleton was discovered, were linked by some to the Sidon sarcophagus that has similar decorative borders. Isn't it a big stretch? I understand that it is called "bone egg and dart frieze" - wasn't it a very typical and almost universally used ornament for a rather wide period of time?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Efstathios »

Yes the decoration pattern seems to be common in many places. Here is the speech, it's in Greek though, interesting parts from 30:00 and on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02JBVAJc4i4#t=5211
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Paralus »

delos13 wrote: Can anybody provide a link, if such exists? I don't have access to JSTOR.
I have both of McKechnie's papers on Hephaistion - Diodorus Siculus and Hephaestion's Pyre and Harmonizing the Alexander-Gospels: a Reply to N.G.L. Hammond - if that's what you're after. Send me a PM with an email address and I'll pass them on.
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