Alexander and the Celtic language

[ruthaki]

Do you think that Alexander (the young Alexander, teen-aged) would know how to speak any of the Celtic language?

[Alexias]

Highly unlikely, I would have thought. He wouldn't have had any need or occasion to learn their language.

Celts were known in Greece as Sparta had used them as cavalry in 366 against Thebes, but Macedonia wouldn't have needed them in numbers as mercenary cavalry. The Celts did not appear in numbers (150,000 of them in three armies), until they invaded Greece in 279 BC.

Alexander had concluded a treaty with the Celts beyond the Danube before embarking for Asia and according to Peter Beresford Ellis 'Celt and Greek', the Greeks completely misunderstood the Celts' statement that feared nothing but 'that the sky would fall and crush us, the earth open and swallow us, or the sea rise and overwhelm us.' This is "in fact a form of oath, committing the individual's corporeal integrity to keep a bargain but also invoking natural elements....They were actually using a ritual formula to emphasise their good intentions as well as a desire for Alexander to treat them as equals." Alexander had expected them to say that they feared him - he was obviously not familiar with the Celtic mindset or culture, and therefore it is highly unlikley he knew any of their language.

[ruthaki]

Thanks Alexias, I didn't think he would so when he meets the Celtic girl they communicate with signs and odd words in his or her language. I do know, however that Greeks were travelling as far as Britain long before the period of my novel and I knew the Macedonians had contact with them at the Danube, so I just though I should check.

[ruthaki]

Since I first posed this question I met up with a Greek history professor (studied in Chicago) who was the owner of the hotel I stayed at in Zakynthos. I began his captive audience once he knew I was a writer, writing about Greek history. And he informed me of a lot of Greek/Celt connections going back even to the 5th century BC. And a lot of the Celtic words that came from the Greek (Celt = Keltos, son of Herakles) and Druid - from the greek work"druis", the oak.
Scotland = from the Greek work "skotia" the dark place.

So I see that it could be possible that Alexander who was keen on learning everything and especially about the people who were outside his circle, that he might possibly have known a bit of Celtic language.

[agesilaos]

Unfortunately, the celts did not refer to themselves as Keltoi, nor are Scotland or druid celtic words, they derive from the Greek because they are Greek terms applied to the Celts (itself a modern construct). Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes

[athenas owl]

I'd think that if any other language was familiar to him as a young man, it would have been Illyrian or something similar. Some family, shirt tail or otherwise were Illyrian and didn't he high tail it to Illyria after one of his "spats" with his father?

[ruthaki]

According to the maps I have for my research there were Celtic tribes almost as far south as Illyria and of course to the Danube River. And there were Greeks traveling to "Britain" going quite a long ways back and recording things about it. There was a Greek colony in Massalia (now Marseilles) and there were Celts all around them there.

I don't assume Alexander would be 'fluent' in their language but he would likely have known some of it as he was an astute reader/scholar and loved to learn about the other cultures.

[Alexias]

I don't assume Alexander would be 'fluent' in their language but he would likely have known some of it as he was an astute reader/scholar and loved to learn about the other cultures.

Forgive me, but that is an artistic assumption you are making about Alexander's character. True, he might have picked up a word or two of a Celtic language, but which one? Surely the Celts from Britain to the Danube did not all speak the same language? The languages may have had the same origin, but might have been as different from each other as Greek was from Macedonian. Also, Alexander's focus was on the 'barbarian' countries to the east, not the north, and he never (apparently) learnt Persian, or at least was careful never to let anyone know if he developed any fluency in Persian, so why woud he be interested in Celtic?

[ruthaki]

How can you 'assume' he didn't learn Persian? He had, after all, Persian wives who didn't speak Macedonian. And there was a lot of trading going on in those days.

[agesilaos]

Arrian VII 6 says that the Macedonians were 'disgusted with Peukestas' medizing in both dress and speech' he alone is singled out as medizing in these ways, had Alexander spoken Persian we might expect it to join this catalogue of grievances.

[marcus]

How can you 'assume' he didn't learn Persian? He had, after all, Persian wives who didn't speak Macedonian. And there was a lot of trading going on in those days.

I'm dredging this up from memory, as I haven't time to check properly, but ... when Sisygambis and her daughters were left behind in Susa, they were to be instructed in Greek. One assumes, therefore, that by the time Alexander returned from India they had had plenty of time to learn to converse with him.

Barsine already spoke Greek, of course. Roxane had plenty of long, boring hours waiting for her husband to pay her attention, during which she was doubtless taught Greek.

It might also be worth considering that conquerors do not, traditionally, demean themselves by learning the language of the people they have conquered. It is usually incumbent on the conquered to learn to speak the conquerors' language. And it is also worth bearing in mind that, at least in the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires, the language of the court and of the imperial bureaucracy remained Greek until the dissolution of those empires.

[Alexias]

Thanks, agesilaos, marcus. I didn't have time to get back on this, but I should have checked my sources before making that statement (although I knew I was pretty certainly right).

One should also remember the xenophobic tendancies of the Macedonian army and that Alexander was criticised for mixing Persian and Macedonian dress (I haven't looked that reference up either!).

He also belonged to a tribal society - a fiercely 'them' and 'us' mentality (not the modern inclusive, caring mentality that is the product of a very stable, secure society), where loyalty is highly prized because the more supporters you have the stronger you are and the less vulnerable to attack. Part of the reason for Alexander's success was that he was very good at being charming and getting people to like and trust him and making them think he valued them. He did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he thought of them and their ways as equal to his own. He had proven his and his army's way was stronger and superior and he would expect outsiders to acknowledge and accept that superiority and become one of his tribe. He wouldn't become one of theirs.

[ruthaki]

Of course they spoke Greek as the court language and their own tribal dialects. But these were educated men and Alexander was known to have a keen desire to learn about new things and other customs. So who says he would never attempt to learn some of the other languages - not to say he'd be 'fluent' - but when you have these people around you of course unless you are a dolt you'd pick up the odd word enough for some conversation. After all, he wanted to bring Hellenism to the other worlds so he'd have to communicate with them in some way besides just dressing like a Persian (which annoyed his officers).

[Paralus]

After all, he wanted to bring Hellenism to the other worlds so he'd have to communicate with them in some way besides just dressing like a Persian (which annoyed his officers).

Yet he did not invade Persia "to bring Hellenism to other worlds"; he invaded to subdue and conquer. It is telling that in the instances Alexander is reduced to exhorting his troops to continue bringing Hellenism to the unwashed is not among the arguments. Indeed it is always presented in terms of those yet to be subdued (the unconquered are dangerous) and the renown to be gained. Along with this there is the riches to be won by continued conquering. That Alexander crossed into Asia with an aim the spread Hellenism belongs to the Macedon of Gene Roddenberry....

Asia. The final frontier..These are expeditions of the Alexander-led Macedonians. Their ten year mission: to explore strange eastern lands; to seek out barbarian life and philosophers; to boldly Hellenise where no Hellene has been before.

So who says he would never attempt to learn some of the other languages - not to say he'd be 'fluent' - but when you have these people around you of course unless you are a dolt you'd pick up the odd word enough for some conversation.

Others have indicated that evidence points in the other direction - as one would expect. Persians were taught Greek not Macedonians Persian. That the odd word would be picked up is to be expected but that is a far cry from Alexander desiring to learn Persian (or his senior marshals for that matter). Whether he'd have bothered to learn Persian had he lived can never be known. I somehow doubt he'd have the time, for on the basis of a supposed "keen desire to learn about new things and other customs" he'd have been busy learning Arabic, Punic and Latin as well. Even his ardent admirer, Arrian, seemed to think he had far more mundane matters of a military nature which preoccupied his attentions (7.9.6):

But the truth of the matter, it seems to me at least, is that Alexander was insatiable for ever increasing gain.

And, in the end, it is only an increase in the Macedonians' (Alexander's) gains (and the near regular other tribes/nations as yet unsubdued) that Arrian gives as Alexander's reasons for going on in India. No Hellenising to be seen.

The "Hellenising" of the east was a consequence of the invasion and far more related to the activity of the Successors and the states they created.