Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

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robbie
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Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

Read that author Green said:

“It was well known that Alexander “actively disliked ugly people.”“ (Green, page 267)

Is this true... where did he get that from? It does not add up with Alexanders chivalrous nature...


all the best
Robert
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by agesilaos »

Could you supply more of the context, I presume this is in 'Alexander : A Historical Biography' latest edition, I have only his older book which may or may not have different text, certainly the pagination would be different. I certainly cannot recall any instance of him expressing any antipathy, possibly at Gaza according to Hegesias preserved in Dionysius of Halikarnassos, where less than complementary things are said about Batis, but of the top of my head I think the attitude is Hegesias' not put into Alexander's mouth. The context might help spark a grey cell or two
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

Dear Agesilaos..

It was in regard to when Alexander lashed Batis by the ankles behind a chariot and dragged him around the walls of Gaza..

it specifically says:

"He (Batis) stood there, grimly defiant covered with dust, sweat and blood, a huge corpulent, darkskinned Eunuch. Interrogated by Alexander, he refused to utter a word; he would not even beg for mercy. The king who actively disliked ugly people (and was himself in a very ugly mood) seems to have lost control of himself at this point... etc.."

I can't imagine Alexander disliking ugly people... it's just not compatible with his character... hope you can shed some light on the matter, my friend...

Robert
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by marcus »

robbie wrote:Dear Agesilaos..

It was in regard to when Alexander lashed Batis by the ankles behind a chariot and dragged him around the walls of Gaza..

it specifically says:

"He (Batis) stood there, grimly defiant covered with dust, sweat and blood, a huge corpulent, darkskinned Eunuch. Interrogated by Alexander, he refused to utter a word; he would not even beg for mercy. The king who actively disliked ugly people (and was himself in a very ugly mood) seems to have lost control of himself at this point... etc.."

I can't imagine Alexander disliking ugly people... it's just not compatible with his character... hope you can shed some light on the matter, my friend...

Robert
Blimey, I don't know about that off the top of my head. I'm about to go out for the day, so cannot look for references now; but let's see if anyone else comes up with anything, and I shall see what I can do once I'm back.

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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

Dear, Dear, Marcus..

You are an absolute angel... thank you... :D :D

Best,
Robert
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by agesilaos »

I am an abosulute devil, but this is Hegesias from Dioysius 'On Literary Criticism'; a very bad source used by Curtius for Gaza, It belongs with the Romance as far as historical value is concerned.

Should be a link

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu3192402 ... 3/mode/2up

Total recall powered by cider and hard rock! Naturally I would change either parameter for sponsorship reasons, just a 'xenos' :P
Last edited by agesilaos on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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robbie
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

DearAgesilaos

Thank your for your time and efforts... am extremely grateful for you replies...

Only, what did you mean when writing, "I am an absolute Devil"? :D

Thank you for shedding light...

atb
Robert
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by agesilaos »

Merely echoing your calling Marcus 'An absolute angel'; just my warped sense of humour.
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

Dear Agesilaos..

You are an absolute angel, too...

Thank you for helping me dispel the nonsense which Green wrote about Alexander disliking ugly people... absolute nonsense...

Alexander, I bet, dealt with hundreds of people everyday, and I bet their looks varied.. they were probably not all Tom Cruises.. I find it VERY HARD to believe that he would somehow take a dislike to people with looks below the going norm.. I think he judged people by their merits - their inner qualities...


Marcus

Have you come across anything yet?

atb
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by marcus »

robbie wrote:Marcus

Have you come across anything yet?

atb
Robert
Not yet. Haven't had much chance yet, I'm afraid. But I haven't forgotten ...
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chris_taylor
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by chris_taylor »

robbie wrote:Read that author Green said:

“It was well known that Alexander “actively disliked ugly people.”“ (Green, page 267)

Is this true... where did he get that from? It does not add up with Alexanders chivalrous nature...


all the best
Robert
I don't mean to disappoint you, but there really isn't any evidence that Alexander was "chivalrous". The concept of chivalry hadn't been invented yet and attempts to portray him as such are re-interpretations of his actions, seen through the cultural lenses of a much later time. And very rose-tinted ones, too.

I assume you got the quote from Green's historical biography of Alexander. (I can't check, because I threw my copy in the bin a long time ago).

The problem with Green's biography is that he first bamboozles you with facts - Green's knowledge is encyclopaedic. So you follow him along without noticing that he gradually spins his yarn by mixing in pseudoscience and before you know it, he's led you into a fantasia land so absurd, it makes Mad Hatter's tea party look like a documentary.

Unless you're a very astute reader, or you happen to know more about something than he does, it is extremely difficult to spot where the breaks occurs, ie where he leaves his circle of competence and starts fantasizing to prove his own (often sensationalist) points.

So I would take anything he states with a very large dose of salt.

As to the actual question: did Alexander actively dislike ugly people?

Well, that's a typical generalization where Green relies on his readers not spotting the flaw in his argument before he's used it to prove a preconceived idea: before you can state as fact that Alexander disliked ugly people, you need to define who Alexander would have regarded as "ugly".

The lame? He had Harpalus with him for many years.

The old & infirm? He saved Lysimachus' life near Tyre and was clearly very fond of Calanus, a sundried septuagenarian Indian approaching invalidity.

The sick? He visited wounded soldiers after Issus. The stench of humans rotting in pus, vomit & urine obviously didn't put him off, nor did bloodcrusted stumps, bowel hanging out of bellies and slashed faces.

What about mutilated humans? Humans without noses, hands or feets? Clearly not - read Diodurus on Alexander's reaction to the mutilated Greeks on the road to Persepolis.

If none of them were ugly enough to dislike, who was?

Chris.
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by robbie »

Hi Chris!

Thank you for setting the record straight; on both Green and the "dislike ugly" rubbish. You're right, when one thinks about it, it hardly seems like Alex had any aversion towards the less beautifully inclined, when taking your points into account!

As for the rose-tinted lenses some wings of history's come to view him through... well, I guess, it's hard to judge someone who lived in a different time with different values and ideals... it's kinda unfair... but then again, I see your point, after all he did wage war, and much of what ensued, I agree, is not very flattering, perhaps, when viewed through the filter of commonly agreed upon morals and sense of right and wrong... but then again, I believe there was good in him too... and I do believe he could be chivalrous and noble.. in fact there are numerous hints and references to it... for one, he detested rape... he treated women with the utmost respect... and if I may use your points regarding how he viewed the sick and mutilated to score on my side of the ledger, it becomes really clear that he had some good points too..

I am really glad you responded...

Robert
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by hiphys »

Hi Chris!
Thank you very much! You are perfectly right on Peter Green and his biography of Alexander! I never understood why it is currently so succesful, especially among common people. God bless you for your so outright criticism of this awful book!
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by agesilaos »

It would be better not to judge; whilst Alexander probably did not engage in rape Curtius and Plutarch both tell us of occasions when his army did with his total approval, shock horror, rape was an accepted part of warfare, and whilst Wellington would hang looters, I can't recall any injunction against rapists; military traditions die hard. Don't get too sold on the mutilated Greeks either, that is probably a product of the 'dramatic school' of History rather than fact. Care for the wounded is a required part of ancient generalship, like sharing the troops' privations in the field. Certainly Alexander had a sense of what was due a king, witness the treatment of Poros but that was tempered by real-politik take the case of Artaxeres V aka Bessos.

In ancient terms the killing of Kleitos would be his greatest wrong, trangressing the laws of hospitality which were vouchsafed by Zeus (and by Odin/Wotan in the warrior socities of the North which most resemble Macedonian social structure).

Hiphys? Common people! ? The man on the Clapham omnibus does not give a flying copulation for Alexander, so I presume you mean must ill-educated public school boys; annoying but hardly 'common'. :evil:
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Re: Did Alexander dislike ugly people??!!

Post by chris_taylor »

robbie wrote:
As for the rose-tinted lenses some wings of history's come to view him through... well, I guess, it's hard to judge someone who lived in a different time with different values and ideals... it's kinda unfair...
I can't remember who said it, so I just quote it:

"If anyone deserves to be judged by the standards of his own time, it is Alexander the Great."

Chris.
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