300 suits of armor

[spitamenes]

What was the agenda behind dedicating exactly 300 suits of armor to Athens after I believe it was the granicus battle? And his inscription that says "...Alexander and the greeks, exept the Spartans..." (please excuse the rough quote, its from memory.) Were the two simultanious dedications? And was the dedication of exactly 300 suits supposed to be some kind of jab at Sparta and Leonidas' 300? Just a thought...
Spitamenes

[marcus]

What was the agenda behind dedicating exactly 300 suits of armor to Athens after I believe it was the granicus battle? And his inscription that says "...Alexander and the greeks, exept the Spartans..." (please excuse the rough quote, its from memory.) Were the two simultanious dedications? And was the dedication of exactly 300 suits supposed to be some kind of jab at Sparta and Leonidas' 300? Just a thought...
Spitamenes

An intriguing question.

The reason why I doubt that it had anything specifically to do with Leonidas is the fact that the panoplies were sent to the Athenians.

Plutarch, Alexander 16.8

Moreover, desiring to make the Greeks partners in his victory, he sent to the Athenians in particular three hundred of the captured shields, and upon the rest of the spoils in general he ordered a most ambitious inscription to be wrought: “Alexander the son of Philip and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians from the Barbarians who dwell in Asia.”

Arrian 1.16.7

He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: ‘Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia.’

However, one does wonder if there is any significance to the number, and it could be that you are correct.

ATB

[aleksandros]

I think it definitely was a reference to the non following the expedition Spartans.

[system1988]

Marcus said:

An intriguing question.

The reason why I doubt that it had anything specifically to do with Leonidas is the fact that the panoplies were sent to the Athenians.



I think that he could not have sent the armors to Sparta either way. He sent them to Athens who was Spartas greatest arch rival. It was an answer to the Spartan refusal to join Alexander's army. The only city-state in all of Greece that had the courage to refuse joining Alexander in this war was Sparta. Lets not also forget that Sparta was the only city- state in Greece to ever had a kingdom. So, to be frank, it was a refusal from a kingdom to another.

While blinding ourselves with the greatness of Alexander's achievemnts we tend to forget what Sparta meant (for 400 years at least) for all the Mediteranean World. Thebes at some point gained power just by defeating Sparta in a war between the two. So Alexander was right taking into account Spartas position in the matter: It was the only city- state to put some serious resistance against him when he was in the Asian campaign.

If we were to take this a little further down, Sparta must have been aware and afraid of the fact that Alexander would be the total drain of the Hellenic city- states system power.

[spitamenes]

And about the inscription,.. Alexander refrained from using the words "King Alexander" and instead chose to use, "Alexander, son of Philip". I think that says a lot about how he wanted the Greeks to see him. Less the tyrant, more the Leader. It probably seemed more paletable to the democratic Greeks. And since Sparta was singled out so openly, I think it shows us how Sparta was being viewed by the Greeks at that time, (or at least how Alexander was wanting the Greeks to view Sparta. Were the days of the Hero Leonidas on hold during the days of Alexander? And if the 300 suits of armor were meant to be a statement about or towards Sparta, then what would that statement be? Maybe it was his way of saying, "well we didn't need you there anyway".

[system1988]

And about the inscription,.. Alexander refrained from using the words "King Alexander" and instead chose to use, "Alexander, son of Philip". I think that says a lot about how he wanted the Greeks to see him. Less the tyrant, more the Leader. It probably seemed more paletable to the democratic Greeks. And since Sparta was singled out so openly, I think it shows us how Sparta was being viewed by the Greeks at that time, (or at least how Alexander was wanting the Greeks to view Sparta. Were the days of the Hero Leonidas on hold during the days of Alexander? And if the 300 suits of armor were meant to be a statement about or towards Sparta, then what would that statement be? Maybe it was his way of saying, "well we didn't need you there anyway".

Alexander's remark was a great (although inderect) honor for Spartas war machine. Alexander's words meant "we won despite your absence"

That is what I have been believing for many years...

[spitamenes]

And about the inscription,.. Alexander refrained from using the words "King Alexander" and instead chose to use, "Alexander, son of Philip". I think that says a lot about how he wanted the Greeks to see him. Less the tyrant, more the Leader. It probably seemed more paletable to the democratic Greeks. And since Sparta was singled out so openly, I think it shows us how Sparta was being viewed by the Greeks at that time, (or at least how Alexander was wanting the Greeks to view Sparta. Were the days of the Hero Leonidas on hold during the days of Alexander? And if the 300 suits of armor were meant to be a statement about or towards Sparta, then what would that statement be? Maybe it was his way of saying, "well we didn't need you there anyway".

Alexander's remark was a great (although inderect) honor for Spartas war machine. Alexander's words meant "we won despite your absence"

That is what I have been believing for many years...

I always just took the inscription as his way of assuring that Sparta did not get credit for any part of the victory since they chose not to be there.

[agesilaos]

The reason for dedicating the armour at Athens is that they are the spoils of a war to avenge the desecration of Greece by Xerxes the culmination of which was the destruction of the temples of the Acropolis and the razing of the city; not only that but it was important to keep Athens onside to keep his communications open. The point of making an explicit exception of the Lacedaemonians is to speak to posterity of their unhellenic behaviour. I am not sure but I think the Athenians used to dedicate three hundred panoplies to Athena during the Panathenaia, so the number has religious significance rather than slighting Leonidas.

[spitamenes]

The reason for dedicating the armour at Athens is that they are the spoils of a war to avenge the desecration of Greece by Xerxes the culmination of which was the destruction of the temples of the Acropolis and the razing of the city; not only that but it was important to keep Athens onside to keep his communications open. The point of making an explicit exception of the Lacedaemonians is to speak to posterity of their unhellenic behaviour. I am not sure but I think the Athenians used to dedicate three hundred panoplies to Athena during the Panathenaia, so the number has religious significance rather than slighting Leonidas.

Agesilaos,
Thank you for your input. Your last line was what really got me thinking. I wasn't figuring on the number 300 itself to have religious significance. And that would be why Leonidas chose the number in the first place. Much appreciated!

[marcus]

The reason for dedicating the armour at Athens is that they are the spoils of a war to avenge the desecration of Greece by Xerxes the culmination of which was the destruction of the temples of the Acropolis and the razing of the city; not only that but it was important to keep Athens onside to keep his communications open. The point of making an explicit exception of the Lacedaemonians is to speak to posterity of their unhellenic behaviour. I am not sure but I think the Athenians used to dedicate three hundred panoplies to Athena during the Panathenaia, so the number has religious significance rather than slighting Leonidas.

Agesilaos,
Thank you for your input. Your last line was what really got me thinking. I wasn't figuring on the number 300 itself to have religious significance. And that would be why Leonidas chose the number in the first place. Much appreciated!

Wasn't the reason why Leonidas took 300 that it was the number of men in his personal guard? He could only take his personal guard because he was forbidden to take the full Spartan army, due to the religious restrictions on waging war at that time of year.

ATB

[agesilaos]

Yes Marcus the hippeis was three hundred strong, and Leonidas enrolled a new one before setting out, so that each member had a living son. I meant that the number ha dsignificance vis-a-vis the Panathenaia, but it is along time since I studied the Athenian State so it may be but a dream.

[agesilaos]

OK, so I stopped blagging it and did some research; for the Greater Panathenaia the tributary allies and the colonies provided a cow and a panoply as dedications; the tribute lists name 264 allies and may not be complete,in any case only 36 colonies need finding to make the 300 of my opium induced vision.

Alternatively 1/60th was Athena's tithe so perhaps this indicates that Alexander only faced 18,000 at the Granikos.

[Paralus]

Yes Marcus the hippeis was three hundred strong, and Leonidas enrolled a new one before setting out, so that each member had a living son. I meant that the number ha dsignificance vis-a-vis the Panathenaia, but it is along time since I studied the Athenian State so it may be but a dream.

A much vexed issue is the status of the hippeis. These are not a dedicated bodyguard of the kings and nor are they a bodyguard chosen by the kings as Xenophon (Const. Lac. 4.3) relates:

The Ephors, then, pick out three of the very best among them. These three are called Commanders of the Guard (hippagretai). Each of them enrols a hundred others, stating his reasons for preferring one and rejecting another.

Given that Spartan kings often (very often) disagreed with each other on policy, allowing same to select personal guards would be a fraught proposition. Those shadowy, nefarious power brokers - the Ephors - knew their stuff.

[spitamenes]

Im argueing against myself here in a way but maybe the number had religious properties even before Leonidas, and that is why he used it as the amount of his personal body guard. And Alexander could have dedicated the 300 not as a jab at Sparta, but because that is what could be expected. He seemed to be aiming to please(all the greeks but Sparta) by the looks of the inscription that came with the panoplies. So why not dedicate a large and religiously significant number of them to Athena after the battle?

Opium induced visions Agesilaos? Are you injured or must your fellow Pothosians start planning an internet based intervention?

[spitamenes]

Paralus,
Thanks for sharing the Xenophon quote, I've never heard about the three commanders picking one hundred each. Good to know.