Tyre siege.

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spitamenes
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Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

Does anyone know where to find some good images of what Tyre looks like in modern day? And if there are any ruins from Alexanders day still standing? I do know of Roman ruins but cannot find anything that is said to be older than that. Even ancient ruins in old Tyre on the mainland would be great if they exist.

Thank you, Spitamenes.
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marcus
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Does anyone know where to find some good images of what Tyre looks like in modern day? And if there are any ruins from Alexanders day still standing? I do know of Roman ruins but cannot find anything that is said to be older than that. Even ancient ruins in old Tyre on the mainland would be great if they exist.

Thank you, Spitamenes.
Unfortunately that's one of the places I don't have any photos of - it's too close to the Israeli border, so the UK Foreign Office recommends that one doesn't go there ... and that meant that my travel insurance wouldn't cover me. I wouldn't have worried too much, but I was travelling with some friends and I asked their views, and they weren't prepared to go!

Anyway, what I can tell you is that you can see the mole. I am sure there are other remains, but whether they are from the 4th century BC I don't know. Do a Google images search for Tyre Lebanon (put the Lebanon in, otherwise you get a lot of pictures of tyres!) and there are quite a few images.

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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

Marcus,
I was wondering if you ever got to visit Tyre or not. I've always been told about the instability as well, and warned that its not a good idea to travel there. Id like to go anyway but the red tape is too much to bare. I knew the mole still existed deep down but didn't know there were still visable traces. Its silted up so much over the years you'd never even know it was an Island at one time unless you knew the history. the Egyptian harbor is all but gone and what was once the Sidonian harbor looks to have been moved by time. The Siege of Tyre is what captured my intrest in Alexander in the first place years and years ago. What a great account of history. I've read myths with lessons of determination that do not equal what happened at Tyre.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Marcus,
I was wondering if you ever got to visit Tyre or not. I've always been told about the instability as well, and warned that its not a good idea to travel there. Id like to go anyway but the red tape is too much to bare.
Well, I was gutted not to have got there, but that's the problem when one has to compromise with one's travelling companions. Unfortunately, though very educated and cultured, they couldn't quite see why Tyre was so important. :( Still, once day I'll go back. I did go to Byblos, however, which was much smaller than Tyre and which surrendered to Alexander without a fight ... :D

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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by bessusww »

To but in...What ive seen and read the mole is more visible from the Air..As a lot of things archeolococly are difficult to spot from ground level.

I would say the mole ife excavated would be full of Evidence as readings suggest that parts of the Old city were torn down to make the mole..Plus all types of wood and masonary from surrounding areas...The Sea bed must be riddled with evidence under the centuries of silt...Its fare to say that we may assume the mole is concrete evidence that Alexander was who and what history outlines him to be.

Alexandria is fundamentally claimed to be of Alexander but we know the vast buildings even Foundations were after Alexander
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

Bessusww,
I know they have had digs going on at Tyre in recent days. I'm just not sure if they are specific to Alexander. Tyre has been a hotspot for a very long time and has been built and rebuilt so often that many different people are interested in many different eras buried there. But I couldn't even imagine what they would find if they had a dig in the mole areas. Supposedly, and I stress that word, the locals still find greek and macedonian arrowheads in the areas of the old island wall foundations. Another fine legend is located in the area of Bactria. Where the locals have found solid silver arrowheads in certain battle areas and,so they say, if you find a silver one, it was shot by the Macedonian Royal Bodyguard protecting the King! Sure sounds nice anyway. :wink: My Captain seemed to believe it, seeing as he purchased one from a local while he was on duty in the area. And he was quite proud of it. As I would be too. Even if it IS a little far fetched.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by bessusww »

Spitamenese

Hi, think any thing of a stone structure only would remain...I think of the srtucture made tobridge the forge to get to the gap to the sogdian Rock...Alas a make shift structure made from wood and timber surely gone by now.
Also the statues left at beas before he returned.If they were carved from Stone and as big as the wanted, shouldnt be too hard to find..But as they may have been made hastily perhaps were only made of timber and have gone

Alexander spent months and years inthe Bactrian provinces and maybe if we could be more friendly and modern Afghans were not so tribal and fighting each other,Maybe would get chatty and know some of these things...Surely theres little intertribe talks and knowledge of structures here and there...Even of stories passed down of Macedonians passing by thether positive or negative...I doubt the Afghans hold Alexander in high esteem he got upto various terror tactics in the area.

But even negative publicity or information does help in learning new things
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spitamenes
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

bessusww wrote: Also the statues left at beas before he returned.If they were carved from Stone and as big as the wanted, shouldnt be too hard to find..But as they may have been made hastily perhaps were only made of timber
Maybe it was just the way it was worded when I read about the statues at Beas but for some reason I've always expected they were made of timber. And yes, sadly they would be long gone. But in the area, there are shrines that still are revered today. Some people have connected these ancient stone shrines with the spot where Alexander ordered the building of the statues. Maybe the area inhabitants took notice of the wooden structures and as they deteriorated, set up they're own stone monuments to keep the place sacred.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

bessusww wrote:...I think of the srtucture made tobridge the forge to get to the gap to the sogdian Rock...
Bessusww,
Hello! The Sogdian rock is a really interesting story, and nowdays the location is called "Pir Sar" which is a peak in a very hilly and unforgiving terrain, what is really interesting is where the fortress was supposed to be you can still see the deep gorge that held the bridge that Alexander built. So even though the actual structure is no longer there. It is still very visable where it was located. And as you stated,.. arial views are much more revealing. From the air you can easily see the gorge that was dug to support the bridge structure. Even after all this time!
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by amyntoros »

spitamenes wrote:
bessusww wrote:...I think of the srtucture made tobridge the forge to get to the gap to the sogdian Rock...
Bessusww,
Hello! The Sogdian rock is a really interesting story, and nowdays the location is called "Pir Sar" which is a peak in a very hilly and unforgiving terrain, what is really interesting is where the fortress was supposed to be you can still see the deep gorge that held the bridge that Alexander built. So even though the actual structure is no longer there. It is still very visable where it was located. And as you stated,.. arial views are much more revealing. From the air you can easily see the gorge that was dug to support the bridge structure. Even after all this time!
They dug a gorge? You're thinking of the capture of the Rock of Chorienes, right? I thought that they went down into the ravine and drove in posts in order to support a bridge. Or was there some other rock where they dug a gorge? Sorry if I'm confusing the issue. Geography is not one of my best subjects which is why your proposed interactive map would be wonderful. :)
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by sikander »

Greetings,

These might be of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tyre- ... y-1934.jpg

Regards,
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

amyntoros wrote:
spitamenes wrote:
bessusww wrote:...I think of the srtucture made tobridge the forge to get to the gap to the sogdian Rock...
Bessusww,
Hello! The Sogdian rock is a really interesting story, and nowdays the location is called "Pir Sar" which is a peak in a very hilly and unforgiving terrain, what is really interesting is where the fortress was supposed to be you can still see the deep gorge that held the bridge that Alexander built. So even though the actual structure is no longer there. It is still very visable where it was located. And as you stated,.. arial views are much more revealing. From the air you can easily see the gorge that was dug to support the bridge structure. Even after all this time!
They dug a gorge? You're thinking of the capture of the Rock of Chorienes, right? I thought that they went down into the ravine and drove in posts in order to support a bridge. Or was there some other rock where they dug a gorge? Sorry if I'm confusing the issue. Geography is not one of my best subjects which is why your proposed interactive map would be wonderful. :)
Amyntoros,
I might have chosen the wrong word when I said "gorge" you are correct in saying they drove large posts in order to support a bridge, but in the images I have of Pir Sar, you can see a very large, unnatural clearing from on side to the other which is said to be where the bridge was set in the past. but, now the first thing I am going to do today when I get home is check myself and make sure I didn't mix up my geography. That's one problem with the history of Alexander, its such a big story I tend to get some facts mixed here and there. :) my apologies for the confusion.
And ill try to take some pictures of the clearing I'm talking about and post them so you can see what I'm talking about. Its cool stuff.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

Sikander,
Thank you for the Image! That is a great shot. All the ones I've seen have been fairly recent and it is far more populated nowdays. It seems like you can almost see where they built upon where the mole was originally placed. Which seems to be more to the north than dead center. I'm sure they would build on the most solid grounds and the mole would be the most solid in that small stretch between the mainland and the old island. Thanks again, out of all the Alexander histories, the Siege of Tyre has always captured my imagination most. How diverse Alexanders combat skills were, how far outside the box he could think, and him taking the helm for his Navy without missing a beat all show the mans vast abilities and determination.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:
amyntoros wrote:They dug a gorge? You're thinking of the capture of the Rock of Chorienes, right? I thought that they went down into the ravine and drove in posts in order to support a bridge. Or was there some other rock where they dug a gorge? Sorry if I'm confusing the issue. Geography is not one of my best subjects which is why your proposed interactive map would be wonderful. :)
Amyntoros,
I might have chosen the wrong word when I said "gorge" you are correct in saying they drove large posts in order to support a bridge, but in the images I have of Pir Sar, you can see a very large, unnatural clearing from on side to the other which is said to be where the bridge was set in the past. but, now the first thing I am going to do today when I get home is check myself and make sure I didn't mix up my geography. That's one problem with the history of Alexander, its such a big story I tend to get some facts mixed here and there. :) my apologies for the confusion.
And ill try to take some pictures of the clearing I'm talking about and post them so you can see what I'm talking about. Its cool stuff.
Spitamenes
There is some confusion. Pir Sar is what was probably the Aornus Rock, not the Sogdian Rock (or Rock of Chorienes, or whatever). That was where the gorge was. But there was a gorge/ravine at Aornus which Alexander began to bridge ... but it didn't bridge the entire ravine as the similar one had done at the Sogdian Rock, according to Arrian:
4.29
[7] At dawn Alexander told each soldier to cut a hundred stakes; when they had all been cut, he himself started to raise a great mound, beginning from the top of the crest of the hill on which they had encamped and extending up to the rock; from this he thought arrows and missiles hurled from the engines would reach the defenders. All hands took part in the work of building the mound; Alexander himself stood by, watching and approving where it proceeded with vigour, and punishing failures to make immediate progress.

4.30
[1] On the first day the army built the mound to about a stade in length. On the next, the slingers fired on the Indians from the mound so far as it had been built, and missiles were flung from the engines; this checked the sallies the Indians made against the builders of the mound. The pile went on growing for three days continuously on the chosen spot. On the fourth a few Macedonians made a rush and held a small hill on the same level as the rock, and Alexander without a moment’s delay extended the mound, anxious to connect it with the hill this small party was already holding for him.
[2] The Indians were astounded at the indescribably boldness of the Macedonians who had forced their way to the hill, and seeing the mound already connected with it, began to desist from any defence, and sent a herald on their behalf to Alexander, saying they were willing to surrender the rock, on terms being granted them. they had formed a plan of spending the day in the delays incident to the treaty and scattering at night to their various homes.
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Re: Tyre siege.

Post by spitamenes »

Marcus,
Thank you for clearing that up. As soon as Amyntoros questioned my statement I began to question it myself. So thanks for saving me from having to duck out of work early in order to look this up and put my mind at ease. :D

Amyntoros,
My apologies for confusing the situation. But hopefully I can throw up those pictures for you soon because they are definately worth looking at.

Spitamenes
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