Latest on Alexander's death

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marcus
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Latest on Alexander's death

Post by marcus »

Dear all,

We're very much into the Summer of Slow Activity now, aren't we? I'm sure many Pothosians are preparing for holidays, or otherwise incredibly busy - I myself disappear on 27 July, until 13 August, so I shall have to leave the other moderators to keep an eye on things.

Anyway, just to keep things ticking along, the latest on Alexander's death comes courtesy of RogueClassicism this morning.

It's worth checking out the article RC mentions, also.

ATB
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by athenas owl »

Maybe that ass hoof was real after all. :D
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Fingy »

Thanks for the article. I believe that Alexander contracted Typhus and was then poisoned by the cup bearer Iollas to ensure his death. Some of the best evidence in my mind is the fact that according to Diodorus(book XIX 11.) "Olympias... overturned the tomb of Iollas, avenging, as she said, the death of Alexander". If Alexanders own mother was convinced that her son was assassinated, thats good enough for me.
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by derek »

I'm never able to get past the fact that there was no talk of foul play at the time. Imagine the natural suspicion following the sudden death of any fit and healthy young man in those days; imagine the reaction of the common soldier if there'd been even a hint their beloved Alexander had been murdered. There should have been wild accusations, riots, lynchings, massacres, but nothing. The generals played out their bids for the succession, but otherwise there was calm. The accusations and stories came later, against people and by people with something to gain.

For that reason, I believe Alexander's death must have been not only from natural causes, but obviously natural causes, to the extent that no one at the time even considered anything else.

Derek
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Alexias »

Agree completely that it is difficult to believe that Alexander's death was anything but natural causes, because if it was a coup, nobody appears to have been ready to take over but rather they were thrown into complete confusion, and if he was murdered for purely personal reasons, it is also difficult to believe that nobody would have gloated over it (either at the time or later), and that the generals wouldn't have punished somebody.
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by jan »

This story is very interesting to me, but mostly because it gives me great relief. I had a dreadful dream yesterday morning but now it does not seem dreadful at all. I am standing beside my brother looking down at a waterfall, seeing the water droplets fall into a black void...I could not understand it at all, but it seemed bleak to me until now...Now I see it as meaning that I would find this story to relieve my mind... I had a problem with the black void until I read this article. So thanks for posting this, Marcus!
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by jan »

Enjoy your vacation, Marcus! :D
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Semiramis »

I have to agree with Derek and Alexias. Fingy, what Olympias says and what she is convinced of are not necessarily the same things. She was no less shrewd and ambitious than Alexander. ;)
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by the_accursed »

I think murder as cause of death tends to be too easily ruled out in Alexander's case. Macedonians had tried to murder him at least twice before. I don't see the logic in denying that there could have been a third attempt. Add the mutinies to the assassination attempts and I think it's safe to say that Alexander was far from universally loved by his soldiers. Many Macedonian soldiers may not have cared much about what killed him – they were just glad he was finally gone. I also don't think most Macedonians would necessarily have known the differences between dying from this or that poison and dying from this or that disease.

As I see it, the speculations concerning Alexander's death (my own included) are just empty talk. Not a single soul on this planet knows what killed Alexander, and unless his corpse is ever found, none of us ever will. I like how Fingy hedged his bet though. I raise that bet and add stomach cancer, heart attack, syphilis, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and on top of that (and this is what finally did him in - apart from the poisons, the daggers and the pillows on face) the common cold.
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Taphoi »

the_accursed wrote:...I think it's safe to say that Alexander was far from universally loved by his soldiers. Many Macedonian soldiers may not have cared much about what killed him – they were just glad he was finally gone.
Curtius 10.5.7-11 wrote:Initially, the entire palace resounded with woeful wailing, loud lamentation and plaintive plangency. But soon enough, all were numbed by mute melancholy as if in a desolate waste, when in dejection they turned to pondering what might now transpire. The noble youths who customarily cared for Alexander's person could neither restrain their gargantuan grief nor keep within the courtyard of the royal quarters. Roving around in semblance of fury, they saturated the city in sorrow despite its immense extent, omitting no moaning that mourning mouths in such a dire disaster. Accordingly, those who had stood vigil outside the palace, Macedonians and foreigners alike, swarmed together. And neither could the victors and the vanquished be differentiated in their shared distress, for the Persians commemorated the mildest and most just of lords, whilst the Macedonians bewailed the best and bravest of monarchs, such that between them they staged a kind of contest in grieving. Not merely mutters of mourning, but also voices of vexation could clearly be heard to complain that it was the jealousy of the gods that had hauled from the human sphere such a forceful fellow in the flower of his youth and fair fortune. His vigour and his visage as he led his troops into battle, besieged cities, scaled ramparts and at assemblies presented prizes to the valiant were as a vision before their eyes. Then the Macedonians repented having refused him divine honours, confessing their disloyalty and ingratitude in swindling his ears out of an epithet they should have enjoyed. And after lingering long between revering their king and pining at his passing, they turned their pity upon themselves.
:!:
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by the_accursed »

Taphoi wrote:
Curtius 10.5.7-11 wrote:Initially, the entire palace resounded with woeful wailing, loud lamentation and plaintive plangency. But soon enough, all were numbed by mute melancholy as if in a desolate waste, when in dejection they turned to pondering what might now transpire. The noble youths who customarily cared for Alexander's person could neither restrain their gargantuan grief nor keep within the courtyard of the royal quarters. Roving around in semblance of fury, they saturated the city in sorrow despite its immense extent, omitting no moaning that mourning mouths in such a dire disaster. Accordingly, those who had stood vigil outside the palace, Macedonians and foreigners alike, swarmed together. And neither could the victors and the vanquished be differentiated in their shared distress, for the Persians commemorated the mildest and most just of lords, whilst the Macedonians bewailed the best and bravest of monarchs, such that between them they staged a kind of contest in grieving. Not merely mutters of mourning, but also voices of vexation could clearly be heard to complain that it was the jealousy of the gods that had hauled from the human sphere such a forceful fellow in the flower of his youth and fair fortune. His vigour and his visage as he led his troops into battle, besieged cities, scaled ramparts and at assemblies presented prizes to the valiant were as a vision before their eyes. Then the Macedonians repented having refused him divine honours, confessing their disloyalty and ingratitude in swindling his ears out of an epithet they should have enjoyed. And after lingering long between revering their king and pining at his passing, they turned their pity upon themselves.
:!:
On one hand.

And on the other hand:
Justin, 13.1.1-7 wrote:When Alexander died, in the prime of his life and in the full flush of victory, there was a dismal silence throughout Babylon. The conquered nations, however, did not credit the report because they believed him immortal as well as invincible. For they remembered how often he had been snatched from the jaws of death, how often when he was thought lost he had suddenly appeared before his men, not only safe and sound but victorious. When confirmation of his death arrived, all the barbarian tribes which had recently been conquered by him grieved for him not as an enemy but as a father. Furthermore, although the loss of her son had brought the disgrace of captivity after a station of such grandeur, the mother of Darius had not until that day felt tired of life, but on hearing of Alexander's death she committed suicide, not because she preferred an enemy to her son but because she had felt the affections of a son in a man she had once feared as an enemy. The Macedonians, on the other hand, were for their part delighted: it was not a fellow-countryman they had lost or a glorious sovereign, but an enemy, and they cursed his excessive severity and the endless risks they had run in battle.
You quoted Curtius 10.5.7-11. Just before that, in 10.2-3 (and, I suppose, 10.4, unless the soldiers mentioned here are other Macedonian soldiers being executed) Curtius tells of the mutiny at Opis, and how 13 randomly picked soldiers (“...those who had been most outspoken”) were dragged off to be executed, leaving the remaining soldiers “...paralysed with a sudden panic” at the sight.

I'm not saying that every Macedonian soldier hated Alexander when he died. But I am saying that the assassination attempts and the mutinies indicate that he was far from universally loved by them.
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Taphoi »

the_accursed wrote:You quoted Curtius 10.5.7-11. Just before that, in 10.2-3 (and, I suppose, 10.4, unless the soldiers mentioned here are other Macedonian soldiers being executed) Curtius tells of the mutiny at Opis, and how 13 randomly picked soldiers (“...those who had been most outspoken”) were dragged off to be executed, leaving the remaining soldiers “...paralysed with a sudden panic” at the sight..
But Arrian ends the mutiny as follows:
Arrian, Anabasis 7.11.4-7 wrote:Standing in front of the gates, the Macedonians shouted, beseeching to be allowed to enter, and saying that they were willing to surrender the men who had been the instigators of the disturbance on that occasion, and those who had begun the clamour. They also declared they would not retire from the gates either day or night, unless Alexander would take some pity upon them. When he was informed of this, he came out without delay; and seeing them lying on the ground in humble guise, and hearing most of them lamenting with loud voice, tears began to flow also from his own eyes. He made an effort to say something to them, but they continued their importunate entreaties. At length one of them, Callines by name, a man conspicuous both for his age and because he was a captain of the Companion cavalry, spoke as follows, "O king, what grieves the Macedonians is that you have already made some of the Persians kinsmen to yourself, and that Persians are called Alexander's kinsmen, and have the honour of saluting you with a kiss; whereas none of the Macedonians have as yet enjoyed this honour." Then Alexander interrupting him, said, "But all of you without exception I consider my kinsmen, and so from this time I shall call you." When he had said this, Callines advanced and saluted him with a kiss, and so did all those who wished to salute him. Then they took up their weapons and returned to the camp, shouting and singing a song of thanksgiving.
Since it all ended in tearful kisses, it hardly constitutes evidence for bitter relations between the troops and Alexander. Rather it shows the relationship in its true light as quintessentially "marital" in nature with the characteristic rows and tearful reconciliations.
the_accursed wrote:I'm not saying that every Macedonian soldier hated Alexander when he died. But I am saying that the assassination attempts and the mutinies indicate that he was far from universally loved by them.
I don't actually disagree that some Macedonians disliked Alexander. But I do not regard this as significant, because there has never been a national leader who was universally loved by all his or her people. Alexander was not generally unpopular when he died. As for the assassination attempts, the instigators seem to have been inspired by special personal motives: the Conspiracy of the Pages happened simply because Alexander had Hermolaus flogged for having slain the king's prey in the hunt (which was perfectly proper punishment by Macedonian standards).

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Semiramis »

Taphoi wrote:As for the assassination attempts, the instigators seem to have been inspired by special personal motives: the Conspiracy of the Pages happened simply because Alexander had Hermolaus flogged for having slain the king's prey in the hunt (which was perfectly proper punishment by Macedonian standards).

Best wishes,

Andrew
Nothing to do with Callisthenes? Alexander's Persianizing tendencies? :)
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by the_accursed »

Taphoi wrote:Since it all ended in tearful kisses, it hardly constitutes evidence for bitter relations between the troops and Alexander. Rather it shows the relationship in its true light as quintessentially "marital" in nature with the characteristic rows and tearful reconciliations.
What constitutes evidence for bitter relations between Alexander and his soldiers is that the mutiny happened at all, and that it was the second mutiny during Alexander's reign.

The way the mutiny ended must have been quite humiliating for the Macedonians. These were men who had conquered much of the known world for Alexander, and now they had to stand outside his palace and beg for him to treat them as well as he was treating the Persians. And this after Alexander had executed 13 of them for speaking their minds as free men. This was not something I'd call a happy ending.
Taphoi wrote:I don't actually disagree that some Macedonians disliked Alexander. But I do not regard this as significant, because there has never been a national leader who was universally loved by all his or her people. Alexander was not generally unpopular when he died. As for the assassination attempts, the instigators seem to have been inspired by special personal motives: the Conspiracy of the Pages happened simply because Alexander had Hermolaus flogged for having slain the king's prey in the hunt (which was perfectly proper punishment by Macedonian standards).

Best wishes,

Andrew
It seems to me, the flogging was only what pushed Hermolaus over the edge. It was not the underlying reason for why he and the other pages wanted Alexander dead. I won't cite Hermolaus' entire speech, but here are a few quotes from Curtius:
Curtius, 8.6.30-8.7.1 wrote: ”There was a general outcry against them, and the king himself asked what he had done to merit their hatching such a wicked plot against him.

They were dumbfounded, all except Hermolaus. 'You ask as if you did not know,' he said. 'We plotted to kill you because you have begun to act not as a king with his free-born subjects but as a master with his slaves.
Curtius 8.7.4 wrote: How few are the Macedonians who have actually survived your ruthlessness! How few, indeed, apart from those of meanest birth! Attalus...Philotas...Parmenion...Alexander Lyncestes...Clitus.... As far as the enemy is concerned, these are still alive today, are still standing in the battle-line, protecting you with their shields, receiving wounds for your glory and your victory.
Curtius 8.7.11-13 wrote: Even so, we could have tolerated all this until you delivered us to the barbarians and (a novel twist!) sent the victors under the yoke! But you revel in Persian clothes and Persian etiquette; you abhor the customs of your own country. Thus it was a king of the Persians, not of the Macedonians, we wanted to kill and, in accordance with the conventions of war, we pursue you as a deserter. You wanted Macedonians to kneel before you and worship you as a god. You repudiate your father Philip and, if any of the gods were thought superior to Jupiter, you would despise Jupiter, too.
These were the same objections that were regularly raised against Alexander during his reign. By the people who tried to murder him, by Cleitus, by Philotas and by his soldiers at Opis. It seems to me that from early in Alexander's reign there was a growing chasm between him and his soldiers, because of his cruelty, his vanity and his adoption of Persian customs. The result was mutinies and assassination attempts. You say that Alexander wasn't generally unpopular when he died. In your opinion, I think you'll have to add, an opinion one can only have if one believes the assassination attempts and mutinies (and the justifications for these), Cleitus' accusations etc. don't say something about what Alexander's soldiers thought of him.
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Re: Latest on Alexander's death

Post by Taphoi »

Semiramis wrote:Nothing to do with Callisthenes? Alexander's Persianizing tendencies? :)
In the first instance the sources are clear that it was the flogging. I think we understand why. Hermolaus needed to kill his boar to achieve the ability to recline at supper, but was short of opportunities. Instead of talking the matter through with Alexander, he simply slew the first boar that came his way, despite royal etiquette, which is classic behaviour by teenagers. Alexander had no choice but to treat it as insubordination. You might say he should have been more sensitive to the issue beforehand, but that would be to apply 20:20 hindsight. Obviously, the traditionalist complaints against Alexander’s Policy of Fusion then arose in the trial and played a supporting role. Are the traditionalists to be admired? Their basic premise was that Persians were barbarians and should be treated as second-class citizens in their own country. Their central complaint against Alexander was that he treated the Persians too well and even admired aspects of their culture. As for Callisthenes, he does not seem to have actually been in the plot, but he does seem slyly to have encouraged Hermolaus in his rebellious tendencies – probably because of his disillusion over the proskynesis issue.

It is a false syllogism to argue that assassins dislike their victims and Alexander was a victim of assassination attempts, therefore Alexander was generally disliked. In fact, it is often the most popular leaders who are targeted by assassins. It is their very popularity that makes it impossible for the assassins to remove them from their positions by more legitimate means and drives them to resort to murder. Consider whether you think the less of presidents Lincoln or Kennedy for the sake of their assassins?

Best wishes,

Andrew
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