Alexander poisoned with Arsenic.

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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

the_accursed wrote:I'd have thought, you see, that my point was obvious:

Alexander was, most likely, murdered. Everything points in that direction. That's the thesis.

I'm honestly bewildered by your post...

I'd not have thought you were that sensitive, Paralus.
No, not sensitive: long passed that as far as blogs are concerned. Perhaps if not invited for the beheading of a decent red. A liking for rhetorical bombs might be more germane

My, admittedly somewhat tersely put, view is that it seems “not on” to have an Alexander who materially contributed to his own demise. I have had it stridently argued at me before. It does not fit the “hero legacy” that neither Hephaestion nor Alexander might have abused themselves unto death.

The sources are pretty clear on Alexander’s increased consumption of alcohol. Mostly it is apologised away – as with Plutarch – and we are, evidently, not told all of it. We hear of “sessions” generally only when it is germane to the story. Arrian’s quote above to set the scene for the ugly, drunken murder of Clietus for example. Thus what we hear are very likely to have been single episodes in a behavioural pattern.

Alexander was near death in India. The wound was no “flesh wound” and will have had lasting effects regardless of whether it is apparent in the extant material. It is, to me, far more likely that this (and other “damage”) plus Alexander’s binge drinking – for that is what it would nowadays be termed – contributed to his body being in a rather vulnerable state.

Stories of poisoning were in circulation early in antiquity. That related in the Liber de Morte is most certainly Diadoch propaganda. As is the material relating to Ptolemy looking after the king’s wishes and abducting his corpse to Egypt.

My view is that Alexander contracted some infection and was in state of health nowhere near approaching that of the man who held the left at Chaeronea. His body, sorely pressed by ten year’s constant campaigning over distances and climes that Philip could not imagine as well as serious bouts of binge drinking, was unable to fight whatever it was.

All of which is not to say that his marshals might not have, eventually, been quite pleased with the death. I don’t think they caused it though. I think it was more likely illness aided and abetted by his “lifestyle”.

This, though, does not go well with the Alexander as superbly fit warrior-god meme. If I have inadvertently – and incorrectly – lumped your view into that basket, apologies.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Not convinced that Hephaistion had to die first

Post by the_accursed »

Marcus:
Anyway, my point was that I don't agree that Hephaistion's predeceasing Alexander is pointed enough to argue for murder; or to put it another way: had he lived, that wouldn't be any greater or lesser argument against Alexander having been murdered.
Alone, it would not be enough. But considering Alexander's unpopularity, and how much there was to be gained by killing him, I do think it's noteworthy that within a relatively short period of time, the two most powerful people in the world just happened to die, and under similar circumstances. Does it, in itself, prove anything? No. But it is noteworthy.

Paralus:

I agree with you about the drinking. Do I think it killed him, or helped killing him? Of that I'm just not as convinced. I think it's entirely possible, though. It's just that I only consider it the second best theory. I think that if the generals did murder Alexander, then kings have been killed for a lot less.

Regarding "heroes"...It's been quite some time since I had any, and Alexander was never one of them. But when I was about 5 or so, I was a huge fan of Robin Hood. It lasted for several years, but then it kind of faded away. I don't expect it to return anytime soon. I think that hero worship is ok - for children. Adults, though, ought to have grown out of it.

I do appreciate the apology. While I've been quite conflicted regarding Alexander, my fundamental view of him - the short version - would probably have to be something like this:

He was born. He caused the deaths of perhaps a million people. He died, and was called "the great".

Was he a great warrior, and a great field commander? Yes. Absolutely. Was he also a great human being? Absolutely not. His greatest "legacy" is that western dominance on this planet began with him. And that is, in my opinion, not something to be proud of.
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Re: Not convinced that Hephaistion had to die first

Post by marcus »

the_accursed wrote:Marcus:
Anyway, my point was that I don't agree that Hephaistion's predeceasing Alexander is pointed enough to argue for murder; or to put it another way: had he lived, that wouldn't be any greater or lesser argument against Alexander having been murdered.
Alone, it would not be enough. But considering Alexander's unpopularity, and how much there was to be gained by killing him, I do think it's noteworthy that within a relatively short period of time, the two most powerful people in the world just happened to die, and under similar circumstances. Does it, in itself, prove anything? No. But it is noteworthy.
Noteworthy indeed, and I certainly don't dispute that. Please note that my argument was simply that I do not see that Hephaistion dead before or after Alexander bears greatly on any consideration about whether Alexander was murdered.

Having said that (and to put another fly in the ointment), the time difference between the two deaths is actually not that short. Therefore, I wonder whether anyone at the time would ever have seen anything "noteworthy" - and, by extension, should we?

Regarding your note to Paralus:
I think that hero worship is ok - for children. Adults, though, ought to have grown out of it.
What an interesting comment. It would make a good essay question! :D

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Re: Not convinced that Hephaistion had to die first

Post by the_accursed »

Noteworthy indeed, and I certainly don't dispute that. Please note that my argument was simply that I do not see that Hephaistion dead before or after Alexander bears greatly on any consideration about whether Alexander was murdered.
Let's just say that it's speculative, on my behalf. Not ironclad, for sure. Still - if Hephaestion had died as king, after Alexander, and still under similar circumstances, then I think these two deaths - two young kings in a row, dying (approximately) the same way - would have seemed more suspicious, than the second in command dying, and then, a year or so later, the king, too.
Having said that (and to put another fly in the ointment), the time difference between the two deaths is actually not that short. Therefore, I wonder whether anyone at the time would ever have seen anything "noteworthy" - and, by extension, should we?
But then, if they truly did murder Hephaestion, they would have had to wait for a while before they killed Alexander. Long enough to make his death seem not too suspicious. Again, not that this would have been crucial to them. But why take unnecessary risks? If they did poison Alexander, than that itself was a cautious way of getting rid of him.
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Post by derek »

The fact that Alexander’s death didn’t prompt outrage and accusations, for me, points to it being a natural death. He was a young man and died suddenly in an age when they still believed in curses and burned witches, yet the only controversy immediately following his death was over who should succeed. He was (for the most part) still loved by the men, and if there’d been any whiff of suspicion, surely they’d have been tearing the generals apart. Yet nothing. That for me, suggests they recognised it as a natural death. The sources may not say so, but for all we know he died at a time when Babylon was suffering yet another outbreak of something or other, and everyone recognised that he was just another victim.

The stories of plots and murder didn’t come until later, by which time every accusation had a political motive behind it.

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My guess is that he knew he was poisoned, didn't care,

Post by rjones2818 »

and that's why he didn't name a successor on his death bed. Unless, of course, he did leave a successor, in which case I don't think he was poisoned.

"To the strongrest" would have been said out of spite. :twisted: Sort of "You want to get rid of me, fine! Let's see what you can do amongst yourselves."
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Re: Not convinced that Hephaistion had to die first

Post by Paralus »

the_accursed wrote:He was born. He caused the deaths of perhaps a million people. He died, and was called "the great".

Was he a great warrior, and a great field commander? Yes. Absolutely. Was he also a great human being? Absolutely not. His greatest "legacy" is that western dominance on this planet began with him. And that is, in my opinion, not something to be proud of.
There are those to whom that view would be as heretical as Renaissance science suggesting the Earth moved around the sun was to religious power. Instead of Galileo you have evoked VD Hanson! The again, that is not the first time though.

Largely that would have you in concordance with my own views. As I’ve written many a time: this was no Hellenising civiliser of men on some altruistic mission to bring empire and enlightenment to the barbaroi. The sentence rounds out with “empire” and the word civilising is an oxymoron. He was, though, no Hitler or Stalin: that belies a lack of understanding of such errant personalities I’d argue.

My view is that the word “great” relates to his battlefield success. Not the right way to put it I suppose. More that he aggregated such a vast territory to Macedon in just some ten years. The sources, such as they are, all relate his tactical acumen or genius. This, I would think, is largely correct.

Management of that spear-won territory and the lack of any due diligence to a stable succession can in no way be described as great.

I must say that I feel much safer now that the apology has been accepted. God knows I’ve no wish to be sent back –with Jona Lendering, Worthington and co – to spitted by a Macedonian sarisa.
the_accursed wrote: I think that hero worship is ok - for children. Adults, though, ought to have grown out of it.
Wish I had written that. Nice to see you made it back to the forum.

The “Bosworth of the forum” (yes: I should have retired after that pat on the back….).
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Post by amyntoros »

the_accursed wrote:As Paralus has pointed out, Alexander was universally hated. He was, most likely, the most hated king in recorded history: he was hated by the Macedonians, the Greeks (who seems to have hated him more than they ever hated Darius and Xerxes), the Persians and the Indians. He was as hated by his own army and generals as ever by his opponents.
derek wrote:The fact that Alexander’s death didn’t prompt outrage and accusations, for me, points to it being a natural death. He was a young man and died suddenly in an age when they still believed in curses and burned witches, yet the only controversy immediately following his death was over who should succeed. He was (for the most part) still loved by the men, and if there’d been any whiff of suspicion, surely they’d have been tearing the generals apart. Yet nothing. That for me, suggests they recognised it as a natural death. The sources may not say so, but for all we know he died at a time when Babylon was suffering yet another outbreak of something or other, and everyone recognised that he was just another victim.
Up to this point I haven't involved myself in this thread because, like Marcus, I'm not committed either way although I do have a slight leaning towards illness as the cause of Alexander's death. I feel that holes can be found in either argument presented but am normally happy to let others point them out. Still, I have wanted to comment about Alexander being universally hated and Derek's response has encouraged me. My feelings are that he was not. Certainly the belief that a conquered people will hate their conquerors is justifiable and for the most part this is true – the Indians certainly bore no love for Alexander and I doubt that the Bactrian/Sogdians did either (except for those drawn into Alexander's circle by marriage, etc.) But did the Persians all hate him at that time? I doubt it. Oh, I don't for one minute believe it was a hippy love fest between them as is sometimes presented, but for the vast majority of Persians life went on much as it had done before - except with a new king. Not necessarily a better king, but not a worse one either. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

I question also whether hatred of Alexander could be applied to ALL of the Greeks. Yes, the Athenians evidenced this and I'm sure the Thebans (or what was left of them) had even stronger feelings against Alexander, but what of the remainder of Greece? Unfortunately we have little information on most of the city states, but the Spartans come immediately to mind as Greeks who couldn't care less one way or the other about Alexander as long as they were left alone. And they were. I'm not saying that any polis had feelings of affection for Alexander, but is hatred the right word?

As for the Macedonians . . . well, there had been a shift in their attitude towards Alexander as the campaign moved eastwards which became even more obvious at the time of their mutiny back in the west. They didn't quite view him as their own glorious boy king any more and the bloom may have been off the rose, but there is no evidence in the sources to show that they "hated" Alexander, and much to contradict this. Their behavior as Alexander lay dying is the most obvious, but there is also the later use by various Diadochi of Alexander's armor and name to motivate their men. Yes, I accept that feelings may change after a sudden death and there was bound to be a certain amount of romanticizing, but one doesn't normally swing all the way from "hatred" to posthumous adoration.

I can't see the evidence for the generals having hated Alexander either. Although they later proved themselves to be sharks that would brook no competitor on the feeding grounds there isn't one who could say that Alexander had not done well by him. That some of them may not have approved of his choices in matters of politics and warfare doesn't translate into hatred, IMO. (Nor does the posthumous rejection of Alexander's future plans.)

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Post by aleksandros »

amyntoros there were certain generals that feared him! I dont recall the name of the general Alexander was going to replace Antipater with.
And let's don't forget that the macedonian enemies of Alexander were countless and i am reffering to the relatives of those Alexander murdered when he took power back in 336 and later on his campaign. Were are talking about royal murders in strong and well connected families in Pella.
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Post by agesilaos »

It is alleged that Krateros was to replace Antipater, yet he spent over a year shilly-shallying in Cilicia when Alexander was still alive and earned no rebuke. As I have argued elsewhere this story of Alexander's antipathy for Antipater seems to stem from later material which Arrian absorbed while reading up for his sequel to the 'Anabasis', 'Things after Alexander', which he sigularly failed to reconcile with the positive picture in the Alexander sources - VII 12-13.

As for Doherty, I heartily recommend his book, Death of a God, but only to serve as an example of how not to approach history. The first error is in a timeline before the pages even get numbered! He has Alexander founding a city among the Medes because he is too stupid to know that the Maedoi are a Thracian people, and it gets worse this lover of classical history calls Lucan 'The Historian' even though he was a Roman poet and Doherty actually means Lucian of Samogusta a second century AD philospher cum satirist! In the Pentagon there was a game they used to play with Jeffery Archer's 'Shall we tell the President' involving spotting all the errors, I'd suggest this book for a similar role but would fear Rhadamanthus' punishment if it led to one more copy being purchased.

Hephaistion is a red herring. But here is a question for the conspiricists - given that the generals have decided on executive action why is the settlement at Babylon such a half-arsed compromise instead of the smooth transition with the guilty duly rewarded? Indeed of the actual guests at the alleged murder banquet it is those explicitly exonerated who gain the most, viz Perdikkas, Lysimachos, Eumenes and especially Ptolemy.

Trying to do something creative around Hephaistion so must keep my thoughts on that subject strictly hush hush and on the need to know...
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Post by amyntoros »

aleksandros wrote:amyntoros there were certain generals that feared him! I dont recall the name of the general Alexander was going to replace Antipater with.
And let's don't forget that the macedonian enemies of Alexander were countless and i am reffering to the relatives of those Alexander murdered when he took power back in 336 and later on his campaign. Were are talking about royal murders in strong and well connected families in Pella.
Hi Aleksandros:

Unquestionably there were some Macedonians who hated and/or feared Alexander, Cassander being one, but I can't see how it translates into "countless" Macedonians. All the earlier Macedonian kings had had some enemies amongst their own people which is probably why a tradition had seemingly begun wherein all immediate family members were also killed when a political opponent was removed. The royal murders which took place after the death of Philip were hardly a precedent; as Winthrop Lyndsay Adams says in Alexander the Great: Legacy of a Conqueror:
( Page 17. The Period of Anarchy) Once the way was reopened for court intrigue following Archelaus' assassination, it seemed impossible to stop. His son, Orestes, was too young to succeed directly to the throne, so a regency was set up under his uncle, Aeropus, who promptly killed the boy and became Aeropus II. In a brief flurry of killings and deaths over a period of five years, Macedonia saw five kings die, and the direct line of Perdikkas II was wiped out. The rule passed to a cousin, Amyntas III.
IMO, the mere fact that there was no period of anarchy after the death of Philip, that no attempts on Alexander's life took place in the early years of his reign means that Alexander had successfully taken care of all his political rivals. Along with this, it appears from the sources that the great majority of the Macedonians accepted him wholeheartedly as king and there's evidence of what we might call "love" by the army during those same early years. I've already said that attitudes changed somewhat as the wearying campaign continued, but my argument is that these changes don't present themselves as a general "hatred" of Alexander by the Macedonians by the time of his death or afterwards.

As for those generals close to Alexander, he had eventually replaced most of the old guard with his choice of young guns who benefited considerably from Alexander’s friendship, trust, and largess. Now I won't say that there were not any amongst them (or any survivors and/or family members of the old guard) who feared him or who might have had festering anger because of earlier events – there is evidence in the sources that some feared him which is why I'm not committed one way or the other as to whether Alexander was poisoned or died of illness. But I can't agree with a general statement that Alexander "was hated by the Macedonians". :)
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Post by amyntoros »

agesilaos wrote:
Trying to do something creative around Hephaistion so must keep my thoughts on that subject strictly hush hush and on the need to know...
I need to know! :)
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Post by the_accursed »

Paralus

Thanks for the flashback. That was…not very nice of me.

But the good news are, you were never actually in any real danger. For while I did get the flux capacitor to work, I never found a way to generate the necessary 1.21 gigawatts.

Still…sorry about that.

Amyntoros

I think it was more like: ”Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. Well, except that he’s killed about a million of us.”

I think the Persian nobles may very well have been ok with Alexander as their new king. For them it may have been, at least to some extent, business as usual. Alexander wanted, after all, to win them over. But the Persians in general? I think we have to remember that they were real people, living real lives, and having real hopes and dreams. It was their husbands, fathers and sons that were killed on the battlefields. And it was their wives and sisters and mothers that were raped – and then sometimes killed, too. And it was their cities and homes that were destroyed and their property that was stolen – including crops and animals. And if a million people or so were killed (or at least hundreds of thousands), then many more were wounded. Many must have returned home to their families – if they had any to return to - missing an arm or a leg.

And all this was caused by Alexander. He was responsible.

The Romans called Attila “the scourge of God”. The Persians called Alexander “the accursed”. I don’t think these epithets were expressions of any great affection. And I don’t think “hatred” is too strong a word.

Regarding the Greeks, I would say that if they didn’t yet hate Alexander, then it was because they were too busy being absolutely terrified of him. They understood full well what could happen to them if they didn’t behave. And while I think that the hatred towards Alexander was probably particularly strong in Athens; after having razed Thebes and either killed or sold the Thebans into slavery, I think there were few Greeks who were emotionally neutral towards Alexander.

Regarding the Macedonians…was it a “love/hate” relationship? Probably. But I think that around the time of Alexander’s death, the hatred was far stronger than the “love”. Caused mainly by the orientalisation, and also the endless campaigning. And the deaths of Cleitus, Parmenion, Philotas and many others.

I do think, though, that Alexander gave them a sense of invincibility, a feeling that they could accomplish just about anything, and I think they missed that. I also think they missed having had – at least for a while – an actual sense of purpose. Which I doubt many of them felt during the wars of the successors. And I think it was these things, rather than Alexander the actual person, that they missed, and that it was such emotions that the successors tried to evoke.

Regarding the generals, while I think many of them hated Alexander – for the same reasons as other Macedonians – I think that if they killed him, they killed him not so much out of hatred, as out of a feeling that they’d be better off without him.

agesilaos
But here is a question for the conspiricists - given that the generals have decided on executive action why is the settlement at Babylon such a half-arsed compromise instead of the smooth transition with the guilty duly rewarded? Indeed of the actual guests at the alleged murder banquet it is those explicitly exonerated who gain the most, viz Perdikkas, Lysimachos, Eumenes and especially Ptolemy.
Perhaps because getting rid of Alexander was ultimately far easier than agreeing on who would get what. Which resulted in the successor wars.
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Post by athenas owl »

The Macedonians drank like fish...all of them.

And yet, here the thing, how many of the other companions died of "heavy drinking"...well, there were those fellows that froze to death after Calanus's funeral...but that's what happens when you pass out under the table outside on a cold night..

The "morality" aspect that it was because Alexander and Hephaistion, apparantly of all the main characters drank above and beyond and so got their "just deserts", because that's what happens when you drink and are super powerful...at least the Athenians and the Romans might have thunk it...

Dissipation is one of the themes of the "vulgate"...and who else drank themsleves to death (and he very probably did,) Demetrios Poliorcetes after having fouled up one last time and getting parked in a pleasant prison by Seleucus.

And the story of Philip's wedding, where he got so drunk he tried to spear his own son, but thankfully for the son, was too drunk...and yet we don't see this reaction to him.

That is one thing that does tend to lead me towards a possible desire to knock off both or either of the brother-in-laws...because everyone drank, many of the Diadochi had been wounded or ill during the campaign and still managed to survive, till they killed each other. In the end, men in their 70's and 80's still leading troops...

Because all the other hard drinking SOBs survived, their own hard partying is less reported than ATG's and the mysterious death of Hephaistion, either he drank too much BEFORE he got sick or on the last day the drinking killed him...there may or may not have been the fowl..the story varies...

It's just something that should be noted...because we will never know and the ax grinding began before their graves were cold. Literature is lost, things are unknown.

But this all reminds me of a review of Bosworth's Alexander and the East....

http://web.archive.org/web/200303051141 ... alex3.html

In one part, the author of the review, Victor Parker discusses the murder of Cleitus
For Bosworth the whole scene is "chilling"; his depiction of it heavily laden with the vocabulary of a morality play in which flatterers, who are speaking at the instigation of Alexander have all learnt by heart the lines they must say, now begin to build up a "royal cult of personality" (p. 101) and to maintain that Alexander was "invincible and godlike" (p. 100) owing to his "superhuman achievement" (p. 103). After the flatterers deliver their parts, Clitus in surprisingly coherent fashion for a man who is drunk inveighs against them and, inebriation notwithstanding, manages to quote a devastatingly apt passage from Euripides' Andromache.10 For Bosworth, Clitus' poetic proclivities show that his speech was born "of long mental rehearsal" (p. 101): after all, in this morality play everyone did have his lines to learn and his own rôle to play. Alexander, with surprising patience for a man drunk, listens to this dramatic monologue and at the end, when Alxander kills Clitus, it proves for Bosworth that Alexander had instructed the flatterers in what to say and that he truly believed in what they were saying. Clitus challenged this; therefore Clitus had to die; exeunt omnes.

Yet still one must ask if this careful scripting of parts, the apposite quotation from an Attic tragedian, the long monologue of Clitus', listened to apparently without interruption by Alexander - if any of this be credible. Did Clitus really speak those lines from the Andromache, or did some later author insert them into his mouth so that he might have something truly pithy and literary to say? And does this entire incident really prove anything other than that Alexander did not appreciate criticism - who of us does? - and that drink did not improve his temper - whose does it? Is it sound scholarship to turn a drunken brawl into a morality play with deeper, subtle psychological meanings? And was such a drunken brawl finally out of character for the Macedonian court?
In a nutshell, for me, he has pegged what I find annoying about the "Alexander, all evil, all the time" school of thought...to the point of contradiction...

In another part of the review he also brings up something that I think also gets lost in the very anachronistic view that he of all the people, all the conquerors, of the ancient world was murderous..and those "poor defenseless people"...*raises hand to stop Paralus from typing "Rubbish!" before I finish. In a perfect world there would be no conquest, and certainly in the modern world, conquest and war are hideous (I am no neocon believe me..)

But lost in that is this really, I think, unconscious chauvinsism for lack of the word I can't think of right now...those "poor, defenseless not European people...". "Just not up to the uberman onslaught of Alexander..and so their deaths at his hands are all that much worse, because he should have been better.." or some such twaddle...though the empires and warrior cultures did their own amount of enormous killing and conquering...though to his credit, they say, Asoka was so disgusted with himself, he quit and became a Buddhist monk, just as Chandragupta became a Jain.

The Sogdians didn't have the massive hill forts just for grins and they weren't erected simply because of Alexander...Nanda didn't have thousands of war elephants and a gigantic army for nothing...(though is what we read here, another inflation of numbers? How big were the Indian Armies, the Paersian Armies, the Indian cities, really?).."No really, the fish was THIS big!"...

I get a whiff of the "White Man's Burden" at times reading some of the scholars. I am sure they would be aghast and insulted, but as Parker noted, descibing a people as simple and naive, a people who he knows squat all about really, is patronising to those people who fought, died and perhaps outwitted Alexander on more than one occassion.

So while I'm at it...like in the other thread, about ATG being a bottle that can be filled...whenever I want to go with a specific scenario, because it might suit my worldview..I ask myself..exactly how did Callisthenes die? Which of the many deaths described is the one I want to pick...what to do? What to do?

Anyway...Alexander could have died in a lot of ways, but it sounds like he had a fairly protracted illness following wounds, grief and drowning his sorrows for 7 or 8 months prior to his death...though the degree of that sorrow drowning seems to depend again on whose propaganda (including the Royal Diaries) you want to believe. Hephaistion, again, that is more curious...because it doesn't fit, as described, any illness, including Typhoid or Typhus...too short, the recovery and the almost instant death...but as has been pointed out by others brighter than me...Alexander apparantly didn't suspect anyone, so who knows what was lost?

As for hating Alexander? I think there was less hate than exhaustion. As for hating Hephaistion, he had quarrels with Crateros and Eumenes...but despite he and his mentor both being dead, you'd think that a bit of the "hate" for him would show in the literature (aside from the Cardian camp...and perhaps Chares...another who would might have found his position diminished by Hephaistion's rise..).
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Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Post by marcus »

athenas owl wrote:And yet, here the thing, how many of the other companions died of "heavy drinking"...well, there were those fellows that froze to death after Calanus's funeral...but that's what happens when you pass out under the table outside on a cold night..
We'll never know, because the historians weren't interested in whether the rank and file Macedonians died of over-indulgence ... :wink:

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Marcus
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