Achilles Achievements

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:
* The Greek/Macedonian debate
* Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones ;-)
* Foul or inappropriate language

Moderator: pothos moderators

iskander_32

Achilles Achievements

Post by iskander_32 »

Please Excuse My Homeric Ignorance.What were the achievements of Achilles that Alexander wanted to surpass, Historically Alexander out did Achilles as soon as he marched past Troy.Achilles also had the benefit of his mum dipping him into the River sticks that made him impregnable so Alexander was at a disadvantage there, Realistically Achilles cant have been a brave warrior if you know nothing can kill or hurt you apart from the arrow to the heel, the arrow must have been poisoned as I doubt an arrow to the heel be fatal.So what was it about Achilles Alexander wanted to emulate.RegardsKenny
jan
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:29 pm

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by jan »

Do you suppose that superman was based upon achilles too? Instead of a weak heel all superman had to worry about was kryptonite.I like your conclusion about never having to fear anything. But I suspect that the oracle at Siwa confided something of the same kind to Alexander which must have worked wonderfully well for him too. Don't you think that possible?
iskander_32

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by iskander_32 »

Your right JanIll take a dip in the river sticks, become a boxer id retire undefeated world champ.SmilesCheers jan
Kenny
jona
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:36 pm

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by jona »

"So what was it about Achilles Alexander wanted to emulate."I think that Alexander's courtiers and flatterers wanted to say their king was Achilles's equal in courage, not in achievement - which were, as you correctly remark, surpassed after the capture of Troy.I am still not convinced that it was Alexander himself who wanted to surpass Achilles. His own coins show Heracles, who was, as a son of Zeus, a more fitting example."Please Excuse My Homeric Ignorance."Having read many of your earlier posts, I think you will like the Iliad.Jona
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by marcus »

Leaving aside whether Alexander himself created or followed an Achillean parallel ... I agree. Of course, Achilles captured and sacked many other cities during the Trojan War, throughout the whole of the coast of Asia Minor; so one could argue that the surpassing of Achilles was only really achieved when the whole of the seaboard was taken, not just Troy. (And, of course, Alexander's visit to Troy was entirely peaceful, anyway).Kenny, a very good point about Achilles' invulnerability - I'd never thought about it like that before. I suppose that, to some extent, it still required courage to fight; and remember, too, that Achilles already knew that, if he went to Troy, then he would die there.All the bestMarcus
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
yiannis
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 3:22 am

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by yiannis »

There's no interest for someone who's a superhero but doesn't have a weak spot. When it comes to Alexander having Hercules on coins etc, that has to do with the Agread dynasty claiming ancestry from Hercules not because of Alexander's admiration.
But it is understood that the features of Herakles on the coins resemble Alexander instead of Herakles!
iskander_32

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by iskander_32 »

With All due respect I couldnt read the illiad,, Its too akin to the bible for my liking a colection of wonderful stories,, Ideal stories for my children but as intelligence develops I feel the need to step away from fantasy in search of what might be real.Some may critisize mt viewpoints but I think the bible and the illiad are basically the same yet teaching and education shows us that the Illiad is basically fantasy it amaizes me why the comparisons with the bible are not made,,, I would bet my bottom dollar 99% of the writen bible can be historically and scientifically disproven.Nothing to do with Alexander but why did the bible stop as a story surely it is linear and continues.Regards Kenny
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by marcus »

Hi Kenny,I won't get into the Bible here, except to say that it's extremely difficult to put a figure on what might or might not be proven or disproved - not least because there is a *huge* difference between the Old and New Testaments.However, as far as the Iliad is concerned, it really depends on what you want to get out of the story. Of course, on one level you're right - it's probably largely fictional, 'fantasy' if you like. However, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. If you look beyond the story itself, however, what has most often drawn people to the Iliad is the characterisation, the interplay between the characters, and the ideals that the poem propagates. Particularly if one is interested in Alexander and what made him tick (as far as we can know that), some understanding of the Iliad is useful. In fact, it's useful for understanding much of the Classical World.That's not to say that I think you *must* read it ... but don't dismiss it too lightly!All the bestMarcus
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
iskander_32

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by iskander_32 »

With All due respect I couldnt read the illiad,, Its too akin to the bible for my liking a colection of wonderful stories,, Ideal stories for my children but as intelligence develops I feel the need to step away from fantasy in search of what might be real.Some may critisize mt viewpoints but I think the bible and the illiad are basically the same yet teaching and education shows us that the Illiad is basically fantasy it amaizes me why the comparisons with the bible are not made,,, I would bet my bottom dollar 99% of the writen bible can be historically and scientifically disproven.Nothing to do with Alexander but why did the bible stop as a story surely it is linear and continues.Regards KennyIts only my opinion but I personally believe they were ready to turn back, Consolidate and thrash the Arabiand and Western Europe,, And that really has to be histories biggest what ifs.
xxx

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by xxx »

if one professes to want to know Alexander, then they must read the Iliad, his 'book of war,' the book by which a Macedonian King modeled his life, i.e 'To be a great King and a great spear-fighter (warrior),' his favorite line.Achillies being his ancestor and the most famous of his mother's line, it would be natural for him to want to best his reputation as the greatest warrior, not necessarily by how many cities he took, but rather his reputation for martial prowess on the field.Alexander was quite enamored of written works and most certainly he also wished that he would be lucky enough to have the fame that Homer gave Achillies, but alas, there has been no Homer to immortalize Alexander, merely historians of varying quality...
susan
Somatophylax
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by susan »

KennyI'm surprised that you can profess admiration for Alexander and yet ignore the Iliad - Alexander's admiration for it was so profound, it must have been a strong influence upon him and his character.Susan
jona
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:36 pm

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by jona »

Although the Iliad is not true in a historical sense, it tells a story about important human values: the devastating effects of wrath, for example. I wouldn't call it a story for children, because the effects of violence are clearly described; unlike Hollywood, where death is quick and clean, Homer doesn't leave any doubt about what happens when a man dies. The story has no happy ending; Achilles has lost his friend or lover, Agamamenon has lost his face, Troy is lost, and we all know what happens to the POWs.Personally, I think it is not a children's tale - but for the opposite reason: it is too cruel. Give the children Harry Potter, the realistic fiction of the Iliad is for later.The same is true for the Bible, whether it is historically true or not. The story of an innocent man being condemned to death because he dreams of a better, more fair, more honest world - well, the story of the crucifixion is not a fairy tale. And I haven't mentioned the sheer beauty of texts like Ecclesiastes or the second part of Isaiah.I know we have had our disagreements, dear Kenny, but take my advice: you'll appreciate the Iliad.Jona
iskander_32

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by iskander_32 »

SusanThe beatles were influenced by little,,, Richard that doesnt mean Beatles fans should be reading or interested in Little Richard,,, Get my Point?
Kenny
User avatar
smittysmitty
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:08 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by smittysmitty »

In the event, and highly likely IMO, the Makedones ethnicity turns out to be non - hellenic, and this 'Homeric' parallel between Alexander and Achilles as depicted by hellenic flaterers and poets is shown to be nothing more than flattery and poetry, what say then! these people with such indepth understanding of ATG?I can't believe the ease with which people have accepted this rather romantic portrayal of Alex, let alone the Makedones in general.Be rather amusing to discover one day the Makedones were actually Phrygians - and sure - they would have idolized Achilles! ;)The Makedones more than likely never ever heard of Achilles or for that matter Homer!just to throw a spanner in the works!cheers!
jona
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:36 pm

Re: Achilles Achievements

Post by jona »

"I can't believe the ease with which people have accepted this rather romantic portrayal of Alex"Hear! Hear! I fully agree.Jona
Post Reply