The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

[agesilaos]

Just a couple more photos

grooves for the doors to open and close in

dooropen.jpg (29.79 KiB) Viewed 3180 times

The blocks of the floor, not sure of the orientation

floor.jpg (22.7 KiB) Viewed 3180 times

Iapetos, you seem to post in Reply after the post to which you are replying but convention is to post a reply after the last post in a thread and refer back to what you are answering with the poster and the posts date/time unless it is closely preceding your post; otherwise your posts do not appear as 'New Posts' and can easily get missed, which would be a shame (I am sure there are those who would love it if my own posts got lost ).

We will have to agree to differ on the functionality of the poloi, but I agree that the arch shows no sign of flattening, all the blocks are in perfect contact and the footing is absolutely orthogonal, I still think the head won't fit but let's hope the archaeologists deign to demonstrate whether they do or not, it does affect the interpretation rather alot.

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

@agesilaos
There was a long delay between my actual posts and the time they got cleared by a moderator, so that's what the problem was wt the flow of things. I don't know if that is the usual case wt the pothos fora or it was a one time thing...

On the Sphinx's head belongs/doesn't belong, fits/doesn't fit issue, I think it will prove itself easily in time.

On the last photo from the Ministry's PR that you've posted, it struck me odd when I first saw it, as it seemed out of context wt the rest. Now that I see it, it is the right side of the θΥΡΩΜΑ as you see it from inside Θ3 (3rd room - the "red room"), AFTER the removal of the door piece that was lying down. I think, the reason for this photo is to show that border that seems running 20-30cm from the room's floor...... AS IT STANDS on that side of Θ3... cause, if the room has the depth that people think it does, this border will run somewhere in the middle of the north wall of the room...

It is the first time that I actually see a PR photo that has definitely been PHed... odd, given the fact that they have the advantage of releasing whatever they want, and they had already shown pieces of the door to the public, so there was no need for this one.

Also....

1) Doesn't anybody want to make a comment on the reasons WHY the right side of the room's floor has collapsed... I think you need open space underneath for something to sink in.... cause I haven't so far (I am still very young ) a Macedonian tomb wt a collapsed floor.....

2) OR why the left side floor is completely broken up...????

3) AND It just hit me that the door piece is sitting on top of at least 20cm of dirt (also stratified...??? or is it a case of bad light conditions and/or flash?).
IF its condition was the result of forceful entry, wouldn't it be lying on the stone floor???

[agesilaos]

On reason for a collapse might be a chamber beneath it or it might be an earthquake artefact, in that a much deeper chamber may have collapsed; I just do not see vandalism at this site nor grave looting (once someone else pointed out that the stone missing from the diaphragm wall to the third chamber was actually lying in the second and not the third, where looters would have pushed it), the moving of the sphynx heads too points to a damaged monument being sealed due to natural damage to prevent further collapse, in my opinion. That the monument has been quarried later is certain but by then it will have been derelict (the Lion seems to have been moved during the 2nd C AD, 350 years after the fall of the Kingdom of Macedon).

Whether the heads fit will as you say be cleared up in the fullness of time. The fracturing of the floor and door could be due to the seismic event or the Bulgarian bombardment, on balance I would go for the former as otherwise the underlying soil would be hard to explain (I can think of a couple of scenarios, neither involving aliens or Bigfoot, but still extraordinary) like the so-called 'robber hole' the doors are the wrong side to be from a looter smashing in, unless when they reach chamber four there is another hole and the thieves were smashing their way out!

Two further points young man, number one text speak is unforgivable but you are forgiven, and how do you get Greek characters to type, I have only been able to copy and paste from Perseus and other sites, I am very old ?

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

@ΑΓΗΣΙΛΑΟΣ
If you remember Sphinxes flying around then u must be

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

UTF-8 and being Greek... (for the ΦΔΩΞ)

[gepd]

(once someone else pointed out that the stone missing from the diaphragm wall to the third chamber was actually lying in the second and not the third, where looters would have pushed it)

One more point is that there is a ramp connecting the two holes in the two diaphragms containing the 2nd chamber. How could the looters know that the ramp was there, to break the walls at those exact points? Luck cannot be excluded, but it is unlikely. Both the holes and the ramps appear to have been part of the design/construction. Of course, looters could have taken advantage of those holes, but if the chambers were filled with soil, they would have reached a dead end. So, an important question is whether the filling was completed together with the construction, or it was done later.

I just do not see vandalism at this site

What about the damages on the Caryatid noses and mouth? Same for the head of the Sphinxes.
Also Caryatid arms are broken. Aren't those places thatlooters (looking for metals) and vandals (is iconoclasts the correct word) focus? Focused damages to noses, mouth etc. were practiced both by Christians and Romans. Such damages may of course occur from natural causes too, but the quality to which the rest of the caryatids & sphinx head have been preserved is extraordinary, so I would have expected damages to be more randomly distributed, if they were from natural causes.

An archaeologist interviewed also suggested that the damage to the center of the mosaic could have been the result of looters looking for underground vaults.

Parts of the lion have also been recovered from inside the soil, in the chambers, which is also peculiar.

[agesilaos]

The examples of iconoclasm I have seen demonstrate a much greater degree of damage than we see here; the noses and arms are quite fragile in that the nose protrude and so anything falling from above would be likely to knock them off and extended arms are prone to breakage due to the load exerted where they join the body, the tremors of an earthquake could easily cause them to snap off. Similarly, the sphinx heads were only resting on the shoulders and thus easily dislodged, the wings could also have shaken free on their mounting pins these could have damaged the chest areas which again protruded protecting the feet which seem unharmed (which is a reason to doubt accidental natural causes but the alternative is a rather half-hearted vandalism).

I had not heard that pieces of the Lion had been found in the fill; that would mean that the Lion was smashed before the tomb was filled and that the earth was probably taken from the top of the mound, which in turn means that artefacts in the fill ought to be associated with the mound rather than necessarily with the interior of the tomb.

[gepd]

I agree that noses are prone to damages, but if e.g. there were things randomly falling from the ceiling I would have expected to see at least sings of impacts and significant surface damages also to other parts. Also, the lips are damaged too, those are less exposed and fragile (to my understanding) from noses.

The excavators reported that part of the caryatid hand have been recoved in the sand, but said nothing about the metal joints. Which could mean that metal joints were taken away (looters). Of course, the team holds lots of things to themselves, so I cannot be sure. Metallic parts from the doors (joints, rails) are also missing.

Of course, one problem with intentional damage at the noses/mouth of the caryatids is that there was a protective wall in front of them. If that wall was there from the beginning (lets say without the sand filling), it would seem strange, to climb above it, reach the caryatids from the 2nd room (from behind), find a way in the narrow gap between sphinxes & protective wall and smash the noses and lips... Intentional damage makes only sense if the protective walls were not placed there from the start.

I had not heard that pieces of the Lion had been found in the fill; that would mean that the Lion was smashed before the tomb was filled and that the earth was probably taken from the top of the mound, which in turn means that artefacts in the fill ought to be associated with the mound rather than necessarily with the interior of the tomb.

Yes, part of the lion's back has been found outside the entrance with the sphinxes (reported in an official release), part of the lions's mane within the chambers (unofficial report, but also from credible media, near the govermnent). Wing parts of the sphinxes have also been found at the entance (near the sphinxes) and the 3rd chamber.

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

@gepd

The holes in the two arches were made by the people who filled up the monument wt the sandy soil after the INCIDENT(s). They used the last of the 4 pieces (the right most - or the western most if you prefer the monument's orientation) that made up the roof of Θ2 as a ramp from which to fill up both Θ2 and Θ3 (that is why Θ3 was filled up at an angle in contrast wt Θ1 & Θ2 which well leveled). The stones that were removed from the two walls in order to provide access from on top, were also completely removed from the monument (they of course could just put them back in place after they'd finished, but for some reason they decided against it - maybe they thought that the soil filled rooms would provide enough deterrence).

The stone pieces that see lying on the surface of the fill just before the hole in Θ3 are part of the roofs block that have disintigrated over the millenia and fell in place. They are not parts of the broken up stones of either arch.

Those 3 missing pieces of marble (4x1x0.20m) that made up Θ2 ceiling, are the only pieces of the monument that are still missing. They were removed very carefully, esp if one consideres that each weighted around 2 tons, as the undamaged mosaic demonstrates.


@tafoi
IF Olympias didn't end up like this


(taken from Professor Elizabeth Carney's web page)
then she MIGHT laid under a small tumulus in Aegaes...
Kassandros was a mean person. I understand the "politicaly correct" behaviour and its advantages to him Andrew, but I don't think that he would allow anything but Option #1 above. If he did, it would show that he was weak and that under certain circumastances he could take his word back. Very bad for someone who wants to rule Macedonia at the time...

Besides Option #1, the tomb in Pydna has me thinking (dromos & 3 rooms) ... if it wasn't for the couches...

[gepd]

ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ: I totally agree, my point was similar: if it was looters that removed the roof stones, they must have been very lucky to remove the ones that lead to the ramp. So I dont think those holes prove that looting took place. It only leaves the possibility open that looters may have used them, before the monument was filled with sand. We are not sure when the latter was completed

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

As by now I think it is safe to accept the fact that for a time the Monument was visitable (as the tracks on the grooves of the outer door of Θ3 proove), we should also accept the fact that for the door to work, during that time there were no blocking walls. Soil & walls were put up together at the same time, thus necessitating the need for access to Θ3 & Θ2 as the level of the soil increased. Holes had to be opened in the arches, the western more slab used as a ramp to carry the soil in.

It just came to me, now that I am writting this... If that was the case (the Monument had been desecrated one way or the other), wouldn't the marble door (the outer door of Θ3) be broken as well? It is only logical as someone is forcefully making his way into the Monument? WHY then didn't we find a 3rd blocking wall covering the doorway of Θ3? Could this be proof that Θ3's door was left intact? But then... the Sphynx's head wouldn't have found its way into Θ3, as it doesn't fit through the hole in the arch...

Θ3's marble door was broken as there is no other way for the Sphinx's head to be placed in Θ3, but during the final sealing up of the Monument, people decided against a 3rd blocking wall in front of the doorway of Θ3...

Then again, MAYBE the door was in fact in place, it had survived the INCIDENT and it was opened ONE FINAL time, as people put everything in Θ3 and the whole complex was sealed for life. That would explain BOTH the 20+ cm of dirt under the door's pieces and the sphinx's head an wing portions being found in Θ3...

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

After yesterday's storms, the team restarted excavation. Unofficial reports state that more wing fragments have been found the last days, making up of almost 100% of the sphinxs wings.

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

Next official PR is scheduled for Tuesday the 28th at 16:00 at Amfipolis museum. Once again, the timing is peculiar as the 28th is a National holiday (Greece's denial to Italy's ultimatum which led to Greece entering WWII)......

[ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ]

Latest theories that have emerged regarding the Amfipolis monument: 1) The M was hit by chunami following an earthquake in 565 which caused the filling up wt silt & sand, brought forward by a Chem.Engineer working at restorations for the State.....!!!!!

[Taphoi]

Not only the heads and wings, but each of the four breasts of the sphinxes has been neatly knocked off, whilst the other parts of the beasts are relatively unharmed. It would be interesting if somebody could explain how that could happen through a natural accident and without deliberate mutilation?
It now appears certain that some at least of the sculpture fragments and the marble door fragments were found in the middle of the fill (not touching the floor and well below the top surface of the fill). It would again be interesting to see what kind of explanation for this can be suggested without resorting to concluding that the sculpture + door smashing and the filling + sealing were happening in parallel and were therefore perpetrated by the same team of wreckers & sealers?
Best wishes,
Andrew