THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

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agesilaos
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by agesilaos »

Since the whole of the front line was cavalry it follows that the cavalry had to be broken through before anything could threaten the levies.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

agesilaos wrote:Since the whole of the front line was cavalry it follows that the cavalry had to be broken through before anything could threaten the levies.
Thanks for that. Yes it makes sense that the Persian levies would run away only after they were certain their chances weren't good. If their better trained cavalry broke, then I suppose they'd feel they had no chance either. Fear of punishment from their leaders may have kept the levies in formation at the beginning, but once their cavalry broke and the seemingly invincible Macedonians started charging at them, no threat of punishment from their leaders could have stopped the whole mass of Persian levies from fleeing.

And as you said, we don't know the motivation of the Persian levies anyway, so it could be possible that if their cavalry had held out against the Macedonians and in fact were seen to be winning, the Persian levies might not only have stood their ground, but attacked the Macedonians. If that had happened, the Macedonians could have been massacred, due to the superior number of Persian levies. This is pure speculation of course.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

Well I'm not sure what you think of my opinion regarding the Persian levies' willingness to fight if their cavalry had given the Macedonians a hard time? But then again Mazeus' cavalry did give Parmenion's men a hard time and the levies didn't get involved. But then again the levies seem to have gotten into the fight against the Macedonian baggage train when they thought the odds were in their favour. Don't know what to think really...
agesilaos
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by agesilaos »

I don't think the levies joined the breakthrough to the camp I think that was more of a cavalry raid through a gap that opened in the phalanx. I am not sure that the levies would have 'got stuck in' had the cavalry continued to fight, but there would have been no trigger for their flight so they would have stayed on the field.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

agesilaos wrote:I am not sure that the levies would have 'got stuck in' had the cavalry continued to fight, but there would have been no trigger for their flight so they would have stayed on the field.
Sorry, I don't understand your expression 'got stuck in' so I checked for British slang and maybe this is what you mean. "To start doing something enthusiastically."
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... t-stuck-in

If so, I take this to mean that if the Persian cavalry had continued to fight, the levies would not have run away, but neither would they have participated in the fight, but would have simply stood still in formation?
Last edited by Hando on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
agesilaos
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by agesilaos »

They still have a moral effect supporting their cavalry simply by being tere, similarly they sap the will of the putatively losing Macedonians.Nor is it easy to see what other options they had, if the whole front line is cavalry ten deep and they are winning the infantry can only intervene by pushing through their mounted compatriots, even if the Macedonians break they would be slower in pursuit than the cavalry.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

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Last edited by Hando on Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hypaspist
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hypaspist »

Hando, you said:
1)Since the only Persian troops that fought at Gaugamela were the cavalry which totaled 18,000 to 20,000,

Forgive me for going off on an tangent here, but are you saying that Alex's army only fought the totality of said number at Gaugamela?
Anyone, do you agree with him?

To me it sounds like you're taking the edge off of his victory... you've already massively downplayed his achievement at Issos with this post, which btw is still mere speculation, and so you've said yourselfs.

You know, I really wish we could ask the man himself (Alexander)...
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

Hypaspist wrote:Hando, you said:
1)Since the only Persian troops that fought at Gaugamela were the cavalry which totaled 18,000 to 20,000,

Forgive me for going off on an tangent here, but are you saying that Alex's army only fought the totality of said number at Gaugamela?
Anyone, do you agree with him?

To me it sounds like you're taking the edge off of his victory... you've already massively downplayed his achievement at Issos with this post, which btw is still mere speculation, and so you've said yourselfs.

You know, I really wish we could ask the man himself (Alexander)...
Sorry if I sound knowledgeable or as if I've been downplaying Alexander's achievements. That's not my intention. I'm simply trying to learn and I've been pestering Agesilaos and Paralus constantly. But they have been gracious and generous with their answers.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

agesilaos wrote:I'm not quite sure how keen the French were to get into action, but I would saythat we don't realy know musch about the motivation of the Persian foot; we are caught between the cultural bias of our Greek sources and the fact that they did run, with the additional possibility of bad omens, what we don't have is any Persian source to illuminate their side of the story. Certainly, comment was passed at the time on the quality of Alexander's opponents with Alexander of Epeiros allegedly describing them as women.
When you say "we don't really know much about the motivation of the Persian foot", I take this to mean that we don't know how willing they were to stand and fight, since we don't have any Persian sources to illuminate their side of the story. With this in mind, what in your opinion (speculation) would have induced the Persian levies to fight rather then run away?
agesilaos
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by agesilaos »

I would say, letting them sleep and breakfast rather than standing to all night would be a biggie, Dareios demonstrated his fear and weakened his force physically. Including them in the offensive plan too would demonstrate the king's belief in them and keep them occupied, the worst thing for military efficiency is allowing soldiers to think! Were I expected simply to add to the body count I 'd re-assess my relationship to the current government too. Getting God onside would also be important, we hear many stories of Greeks turning a supposed bad omen on its head, Dareios could have done the same. I wouild have given them a stake in victory too, promising to distribute not only the spoil from the Macedonians but also the Royal Treasure in the Persian camp to both the noble cavalry and the humble foot sloggers would be an incentive not to run, men tend to fight for their own property a damn sight harder than for other people's, and this would be a life changing amount.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
jan
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by jan »

:D Hando, A full discussion of Gaugemela can be found on pp.262 through 284 in Theodore Reyault Dodge's book Alexander, and a discussion of Issus is in this text on pp. 295 - 315. Exact troop numbers are given. Full descriptions of the choices to be made which makes it enthralling reading. In Peter Green's book Alexander of Macedon, he has also discussed both Gaugemela and Issus fully and completely. The book on Alexander written by Dodge is an excellent source of information. It is available at almost all bookstores that I have seen. I hope that this will help you. :D
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

jan wrote::D Hando, A full discussion of Gaugemela can be found on pp.262 through 284 in Theodore Reyault Dodge's book Alexander, and a discussion of Issus is in this text on pp. 295 - 315. Exact troop numbers are given. Full descriptions of the choices to be made which makes it enthralling reading. In Peter Green's book Alexander of Macedon, he has also discussed both Gaugemela and Issus fully and completely. The book on Alexander written by Dodge is an excellent source of information. It is available at almost all bookstores that I have seen. I hope that this will help you. :D
Thanks for your kind suggestions Jan. I will have a look at them. I have read Robin Lane Fox's Alexander which I thought was informative as well as enjoyable. :P
Last edited by Hando on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

agesilaos wrote:I would say, letting them sleep and breakfast rather than standing to all night would be a biggie, Dareios demonstrated his fear and weakened his force physically. Including them in the offensive plan too would demonstrate the king's belief in them and keep them occupied, the worst thing for military efficiency is allowing soldiers to think! Were I expected simply to add to the body count I 'd re-assess my relationship to the current government too. Getting God onside would also be important, we hear many stories of Greeks turning a supposed bad omen on its head, Dareios could have done the same. I wouild have given them a stake in victory too, promising to distribute not only the spoil from the Macedonians but also the Royal Treasure in the Persian camp to both the noble cavalry and the humble foot sloggers would be an incentive not to run, men tend to fight for their own property a damn sight harder than for other people's, and this would be a life changing amount.
When you say "including them in the offensive plan" would have helped induce the Persian levies to fight instead of running away, I assume you mean giving them the opportunity to come to grips with and then engage the Macedonians in combat, would have motivated the Persian levies to fight and not run away. If so, this factor, as well as all the other motivating factors you pointed out, indicates that the Persian levies weren't a 100% guaranteed flight risk, but had the potential to stand their ground and fight. So they weren't completely useless as potential combatants after all.
Hando
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Re: THE STRENGTH OF THE PERSIAN ARMY AT ISSOS

Post by Hando »

Hando wrote:
agesilaos wrote:I would say, letting them sleep and breakfast rather than standing to all night would be a biggie, Dareios demonstrated his fear and weakened his force physically. Including them in the offensive plan too would demonstrate the king's belief in them and keep them occupied, the worst thing for military efficiency is allowing soldiers to think! Were I expected simply to add to the body count I 'd re-assess my relationship to the current government too. Getting God onside would also be important, we hear many stories of Greeks turning a supposed bad omen on its head, Dareios could have done the same. I wouild have given them a stake in victory too, promising to distribute not only the spoil from the Macedonians but also the Royal Treasure in the Persian camp to both the noble cavalry and the humble foot sloggers would be an incentive not to run, men tend to fight for their own property a damn sight harder than for other people's, and this would be a life changing amount.
When you say "including them in the offensive plan" would have helped induce the Persian levies to fight instead of running away, I assume you mean giving them the opportunity to come to grips with and then engage the Macedonians in combat, would have motivated the Persian levies to fight and not run away. If so, this factor, as well as all the other motivating factors you pointed out, indicates that the Persian levies weren't a 100% guaranteed flight risk, but had the potential to stand their ground and fight. So they weren't completely useless as potential combatants after all.
And therefore, the armed levies seem to have somewhat redeeming qualities after all. At least in my eyes...
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