Battle Of Pandosia

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robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

hiphys wrote:Hi, Robbie!
the one and only ancient source that records how Alexander the Great reacted after knowing his uncle's fate is Justin (12, 3). He says:
"When these occurrences (i.e. what happened to Alexander of Epirus and Zopirion) were reported to Alexander, who was then in Parthia, he assumed a show of grief on account of his relationship to Alexander, and caused the army to mourn for three days".
I don't know other deeds or quotes from Alexander over the death of his namesake.

Hey Hiphys!

Thank you for that valuable piece of information! I really appreciate it. Interestingly, here on pothos.org, it says :
Justin suggests that Alexander the Great was pleased that his brother-in-law had been killed (Just. 12.1; but see 12.3, which contradicts). It certainly seems as if there was some rivalry between the two Alexanders: Cleitus the Black is said to have taunted Alexander the Great with a quote from the Epirote king—that he had faced men in battle, while the Macedonian had only faced women (Curt. 8.1.37). That there was rivalry between the brothers-in-law might also be suggested by the fact that, when Harpalus first absconded from Alexander the Great’s camp (in 333 BC), his companion Tauriscus fled directly to Alexander of Epirus in Italy (Arr. 3.6.7).
robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

Thank you, Amyntoros for this very vivid and captivating account. A shame what happened to Alexander I... I mean, the disfigurement of his body and all. "Gracious" of Livy to "entitle" him to a place in history... as if it were up to him :roll: ...

Clearly, he was a splendid general and warrior, Alexander I, and who knows how far this course might have taken him, were it not for his all too premature passing.
Pretty cool, though, how he led his macedonian phalanx rather successfully in the hilly terrain of Italy :D

Not one... but several victories... :wink:
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marcus
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by marcus »

robbie wrote:
hiphys wrote:the one and only ancient source that records how Alexander the Great reacted after knowing his uncle's fate is Justin (12, 3).

Hey Hiphys!

Thank you for that valuable piece of information! I really appreciate it. Interestingly, here on pothos.org, it says :
Justin suggests that Alexander the Great was pleased that his brother-in-law had been killed (Just. 12.1; but see 12.3, which contradicts). It certainly seems as if there was some rivalry between the two Alexanders: Cleitus the Black is said to have taunted Alexander the Great with a quote from the Epirote king—that he had faced men in battle, while the Macedonian had only faced women (Curt. 8.1.37). That there was rivalry between the brothers-in-law might also be suggested by the fact that, when Harpalus first absconded from Alexander the Great’s camp (in 333 BC), his companion Tauriscus fled directly to Alexander of Epirus in Italy (Arr. 3.6.7).
And there you go - there are more than one source recording relations between the two Alexanders. Although I wrote that article for Pothos, I have to confess that I can't remember what Justin 12.1 actually says - and I'm not at home so I don't have Justin in front of me. :(
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robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

Marcus wrote:
And there you go - there are more than one source recording relations between the two Alexanders. Although I wrote that article for Pothos, I have to confess that I can't remember what Justin 12.1 actually says - and I'm not at home so I don't have Justin in front of me. :(

Hey Marcus!

Wow, so you wrote it, huh? Cool. :o :D

You know, I really love how you're involved with the threads here, even when you're away from home. :D Now, that's what I call dedication!

Looking forward to your next reply concerning Justin 12.1

PS: Would be immensely fascinating to know what Alexander (III) thought of his uncle's italic victories. Could he have begrudged it? I think it's relatively safe to say that Alexander was not interested in the Italic peninsula at the time.

PPS: I wonder what Philip thought of the italians? Just picked up Ian Worthington's "Philip II of Macedonia". Can't wait to dig in!
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amyntoros
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by amyntoros »

marcus wrote:
robbie wrote:
Justin suggests that Alexander the Great was pleased that his brother-in-law had been killed (Just. 12.1; but see 12.3, which contradicts). It certainly seems as if there was some rivalry between the two Alexanders: Cleitus the Black is said to have taunted Alexander the Great with a quote from the Epirote king—that he had faced men in battle, while the Macedonian had only faced women (Curt. 8.1.37). That there was rivalry between the brothers-in-law might also be suggested by the fact that, when Harpalus first absconded from Alexander the Great’s camp (in 333 BC), his companion Tauriscus fled directly to Alexander of Epirus in Italy (Arr. 3.6.7).
And there you go - there are more than one source recording relations between the two Alexanders. Although I wrote that article for Pothos, I have to confess that I can't remember what Justin 12.1 actually says - and I'm not at home so I don't have Justin in front of me. :(
Am at home, so here are both quotes:

Justin, Book XII

(1) ALEXANDER interred the soldiers, whom he had lost in the pursuit of Darius, at great expense, and distributed thirteen thousand talents among the rest that attended him in that expedition. Of the horses, the greater part were killed by the heat; and those that survived were rendered unfit for service. All the treasure, amounting to a hundred and ninety thousand talents, was conveyed to Ecbatana, and Parmenio was entrusted with the charge of it. In the midst of these proceedings, letters from Antipater in Macedonia were brought to Alexander, in which the war of Agis king of Sparta in Greece, that of Alexander king of Epirus in Italy, and that of Zopyrion his own lieutenant-general in Scythia, were communicated. At this news he was affected with various emotions but felt more joy at learning the deaths of two rival kings, than sorrow at the loss of Zopyrion and his army.

(3)When these occurrences were reported to Alexander, who was then in Parthia, he assumed a show of grief on account of his relationship to Alexander, and caused the army to mourn for three days.
Interesting that Justin says Alexander assumed a show of grief. Perhaps 12.3 doesn't totally contradict 12.1 after all?

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robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

amyntoros wrote:
Interesting that Justin says Alexander assumed a show of grief. Perhaps 12.3 doesn't totally contradict 12.1 after all?

Best regards,
[/quote]

Interesting, indeed. "A show of grief", implies that perhaps Alexander I was not totally in Alexander III's good graces, after all.

All the best.
agesilaos
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by agesilaos »

It says more about the picture of Alexander III that Trogus was painting than any 'reality'; how did Trogus' source know that it was an empty sham? None of the historians accompanying the expedition would have said as much, so it can only be authorial colour.
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robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

agesilaos wrote:It says more about the picture of Alexander III that Trogus was painting than any 'reality'; how did Trogus' source know that it was an empty sham? None of the historians accompanying the expedition would have said as much, so it can only be authorial colour.
Yes, that could be argued. Again, we do not know; we'll just have to extrapolate whatever conclusion seems the most reasonable. In fact, Harpalus' companion Tauriscus fled directly to Alexander of Epirus in Italy, which would lead to me believe that there may have been a subtext of rivalry between the two. But, again, we do not know for sure. Moreover, I don't think the "fighting women in Asia" comment did much to defuse any alleged animosity either. The fact that Alexander I would even spout such a comment bespeaks of some kind of grievance on his part, at the very least.
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by hiphys »

I think both quotes on the difference between Persian and Italic army isn't from an historical source, but from a rhetorical one. The core of these quotes isn't the historical truth, but a quite widespread opinion in Greek and Roman world about the difference between East and West, and the superiority of the latter.
By the way, how could Cleitus hold the opinion Curtius attributes to him without admitting to be part of the army that defeated the effeminate Persians?
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

hiphys wrote:I think both quotes on the difference between Persian and Italic army isn't from an historical source, but from a rhetorical one. The core of these quotes isn't the historical truth, but a quite widespread opinion in Greek and Roman world about the difference between East and West, and the superiority of the latter.
By the way, how could Cleitus hold the opinion Curtius attributes to him without admitting to be part of the army that defeated the effeminate Persians?
A very good point, indeed. Military snobbery, in the west mainly, was very predominant, especially that of Rome. You're quite right in questioning the veracity in Cleitus' comment. Alternately, he may well have been aware of the self-deprecating implication of any such comment, but might still, facetiously, have taunted Alexander with it, all dependent of course of the climate of their relationship. In this case, however, I suspect, Cleitus may have adopted a form a protective, informal (and through his own eyes) custodianship-esque attitude towards Alexander.
agesilaos
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by agesilaos »

The picture of the effeminate East is a Fourth Century trope encouraged by my namesake's campaign in asia minor and Isokrates' subsequent rhetoric but sits unhappily in a Macedonian mouth; the give away is the coupling with the 'real men in the West' which betrays its Roman origin.
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by Xenophon »

...I would affirm and agree with Agesilaos. There are a couple of versions of this 'topos' anecdote......all Roman !

Livy has Alexander I of Molossus make this remark whilst lying mortally wounded - that his famous nephew Alexander III of Macedon had fought against women compared to his own efforts. Aullus Gellius records the famous variation wherein Alexander I remarks as he takes ship for Italy, that he was going to the men's quarters (andronitin) whilst the Macedonian had gone to the women's quarters (gynaeconitin). Lucian too, in his "Dialogues of the Dead" also harps on this theme of cowardly weak Persians, and how good fortune smiled on Alexander the Great being able to build on his father's army and successes, while his cousin Pyrrhus started from nothing.....

We can probably be fairly certain that this is a purely Roman theme, but like many anecdotes, it may possibly have a kernel of truth at it's core....
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by agesilaos »

Herodotos states that the Greeks were in awe of the Persians, the Athenians at Marathon being the first to face them without flinching and Agesilaos' stripping of his captives to reveal their pale untoned flesh shows that even his army had to be taught to despise the enemy. Xenophon may seem to convey the idea that the asiatics were markedly inferior but this strikes me as a certain legere-de-plume, his employer having just been killed because the super-Greeks refused to shift their flank from the river and strike at the King. The decadence of the Empire is a fourth century commonplace among rhetoricians until the Invasion is underway when the communis opinio is that Alexander will be crushed under the hooves of the Persian cavalry. I doubt any veteran of the suppression of Sogdian resistance would entertain thoughts of Eastern effeminacy, though, like any right thinking Mak', they would still want to keep them distinctly 'other'; Persian etiquette is to be despised because it is foreign not because it is effeminate, that is a later Roman gloss.

What of the 'mighty men of the West'? I do not recall the earlier, purely Greek, reports of conflict in Italy such as Dionysios' campaigns the Italians are typically numerous but no more 'manly' than any other barbarians; this is only how i remember it though please feel free to correct or support this notion, I am still wrestling with 319-315 (and it's going to have to be a long post :shock: ).
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robbie
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Re: Battle Of Pandosia

Post by robbie »

Interesting indeed. So the quote may actually stand with one foot inside the door and with the other one outside. It could then be argued that, while containing a grain of truth, it is more likely than not coated in roman publicity. Alexander I may actually have remarked something to the effect, but maybe with a different variation? OrAs usual, the sources seem to agree on the main theme, but being ever true to form, they diverge on the details. Perhaps he did not at all say those words? Perhaps it's a roman fabrication through and through.

Did Alexander III, initially, before embarking on the Persian campaign, receive a request for assistance from Tarentum, but instead chose to dispatch his uncle?

agesilaos wrote:
I doubt any veteran of the suppression of Sogdian resistance would entertain thoughts of Eastern effeminacy,
I couldn't agree with you more. Alexander battled a wide variety of adversaries, and how one would just lump them together as an "effeminate mass of troops", really peeves me; it's just as outrageous as it is ignorant. The romans may have held an all but flattering view of the East as being militarily inferior, but at the end of the day, they'll still have to explain getting their backsides kicked by them on more than one occasion.
What of the 'mighty men of the West'? I do not recall the earlier, purely Greek, reports of conflict in Italy such as Dionysios' campaigns the Italians are typically numerous but no more 'manly' than any other barbarians; this is only how i remember it though please feel free to correct or support this notion, I am still wrestling with 319-315 (and it's going to have to be a long post :shock: ).
[/quote]

The romans were a tough breed, no doubt, but it makes you wonder, nonetheless, about the psychological factor of it. They had to have been aware of Alexander's feats and the adamant discipline of the macedonian army, hence their drive to raise the bar in terms of their own chest-beating. It was not unusual for Alexander to have that effect on people :wink: There are numerous accounts of roman defeats at the hands of lesser opponents. What does that tell us? A mixture of hyperbole and reality? This is not an attempt to diminish them, the romans were AWESOME, I'm just speculating...
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