Head of Hephaestion

Discuss Alexander's generals, wives, lovers, family and enemies

Moderator: pothos moderators

User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by marcus »

chris_taylor wrote: I own a cast of the Alexander head from the British Museum. I can't imagine the Getty marble beside it, but the bronze head would be a perfect match.
Chris, I missed this sentence before. Where did you get the cast, if I might ask? I've never seen one, even in the BM.

Last summer I got a small (6" or so) cast of the Pergamum Head - I got it at Ephesus, even though the bust is in Istanbul. I considered getting a larger size, but it seemed to me that the larger the cast, the less it looked like the original! Even the small one I got isn't *exactly* right. But I would love a copy of the BM one ...

ATB
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
User avatar
Susa the Great
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:36 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by Susa the Great »

marcus wrote: Lack of anastole, and shorter hair, you see. I admit that the head tilt is very similar; but we know that the successors (and others) often modelled themselves on Alexander.

I don't think we could say with the certainty that you profess, that the sculpture was mis-attributed!

Hello Marcus - it's been a long time! Hope you're fine!
I say, perhaps this head belongs to the Subject of this post, Hephaistion! Short hair! :)

Susa
Come live forever with me, or transpire / a flame alone on a funeral pire / We'll build an empire if we so desire, travel the world, and set it on fire.
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

marcus wrote:
chris_taylor wrote: I own a cast of the Alexander head from the British Museum. I can't imagine the Getty marble beside it, but the bronze head would be a perfect match.
Chris, I missed this sentence before. Where did you get the cast, if I might ask? I've never seen one, even in the BM.
its this one

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... Museum.jpg

The British Museum used to offer a service of making resin casts from works of art in their posession on request. I rang them up, described which one I wanted (it was in the days before internet) and they said yes, they'd make me one. IIRC, it cost £ 250. The cast was taken directly from the original and painted to my specification. Mine is aged marble and it looks like a museum's piece.

It's one of the reasons why I'm so sure that Lysimachos-of-Ephesus is really Alexander. I've looked at his face opposite my desk for 15 years.

The service was never well known and it doesn't seem to be on their website. Try ringing them.

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by agesilaos »

: http://powerimagepropaganda.wordpress.com/

But check out the Alexanders here; blog week 8 I think, just scroll down. Some look similar but how much does Azara look like Pergamon or your BM piece? I do agree that the Ephesos Lysimachos is just like Alexander with a haircut, I see the beginnings of an anastole (I know what it looks like; I used have my haircut in that style, yes barbers do think you are mad when you hand them 'The Nature of Alexander' and say 'Like that,' ! )

But Plutarch Alex 4 says that not every sculptor caught Alexander's likeness and he favoured Lysippos, it does not say that only Lysippos was was permitted to sculpt him only that Alexander judged his work the best, one does come across the former misinterpretation and I think Pliny the Elder even states it (though obviously not from Plutarch).

Lysimachos is one of the more elusive Diadochoi image-wise; his beautiful coinage featuring Alexander rather than himself (although were the Ephesos head his...).
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

agesilaos wrote:: http://powerimagepropaganda.wordpress.com/

But check out the Alexanders here; blog week 8 I think, just scroll down. Some look similar but how much does Azara look like Pergamon or your BM piece?"
to me, they look like faces of the same man at different ages - unlike the Attalos sculpture Alexias posted, which to me doesn't look anything like Alexander at all.

The Azara marble is interesting: to me, it looks as if it was done very late in his life, and certainly after Hephaistion's death. There is something in that face I've not seen in any other sculpture I know of.

Maybe it's just my perception of human faces.
I do agree that the Ephesos Lysimachos is just like Alexander with a haircut, I see the beginnings of an anastole (I know what it looks like; I used have my haircut in that style, yes barbers do think you are mad when you hand them 'The Nature of Alexander' and say 'Like that,' ! )
I'm delighted to know I'm not the only one :)
But Plutarch Alex 4 says that not every sculptor caught Alexander's likeness and he favoured Lysippos, it does not say that only Lysippos was was permitted to sculpt him only that Alexander judged his work the best, one does come across the former misinterpretation and I think Pliny the Elder even states it (though obviously not from Plutarch).
I'm looking at the problem from the other end: there is a group of sculpture that is so unequivocally Alexander that I don't care whether an archeologist says they found it on top of Napoleon. If my fusiform gyrus says it's Alexander, then it is Alexander. I'm right and they're wrong. Period.

Lysimachos at Ephesos belongs to that group.

Then there are works of art where my fusiform gyrus returns "need more data for identification": the Schwarzenberg Alexander and most images on coins are examples. If experts say it's Alexander, I take their word for it.

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
system1988
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:20 am
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by system1988 »

agesilaos wrote:Alcibiades was depicted clean shave with anastole and wild hair too, (from a named Roman copy, pictured on a thread here somewhere); the head of Lysimachos from Ephesos-Gocek looks more like Alexander to me, my avatar is meant to be Lysimachos; it is all quite subjective.

Yes, wanton destruction is terrible and not confined to us Europeans; Mohammed Ali (not the boxer) was grinding up Egyptian monuments for lime and hard-core and Memmius famously melted down the statues of Korinth for scrap! An act even the Romans deplored, though on the sound capitalist argument that they were worth more as art! Plus ca change, les choses restes le meme :(

Thank you for your comments.

There is no identifyed marble head of Alkibiades and the picture you probably refer to (rocktupac 20-8-2010) the head does not belong to the inscribed bust. There is only a mosaic in Sparta that depicts Alikibades's head along with his name. The international arcahaeology science especially the sculptures sector tries for decades to identify a certain head, reaching the conclusion that (again, probaly) a head of the sculpture collection of Copenhagen (No. 2263) is the one depicting Alkibiades with a beard as this was the norm for the adult men of the 5th century BC. Only Alexander enforced the clean-shaved fashion in adult men.

Best regards
Πάντες άνθρωποι του ειδέναι ορέγονται φύσει
system1988
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:20 am
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by system1988 »

Alexias wrote:
chris_taylor wrote:
This bronze sculpture is also often referred to as depicting Hephaistion.

http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/19950.html

I don't know who identified it as Hephaistion, or why and I'm not even sure it's owned by the Prado, as everyone seems to think. It's not listed in their on-line catalogue and given that it would be the best preserved likeness in the world, that seems rather odd.

In either case, the two works of art don't depict the same man. It's one or the other.

Personally, I know which one I prefer.

Chris.
I ought to perhaps point out that that picture is one I created messing about with Photoshop and that the original bronze is damaged.

The Prado bronze has only been identified as Hephaestion in the last 10 years or so. The first time I came across it was in Michael Wood's book accompanying the 'In the Footsteps...' television series. Prior to that, all the heads identified as Hephaestion looked like the top photo. Similarly, I don't know what the reasons for identifying the bronze as Hephaestion are. It certainly looks like someone you wouldn't want to mess with however.

I ought to perhaps point out that that picture is one I created messing about with Photoshop and that the original bronze is damaged.


This is to all who have mentioned this issue.

The Prado head is a mystery to me. Let me start by saying that I have not seen it published in any book(s) that have to do with ancient sculpting (I may have lost touch with more recent editions because over the past 2 years I had some health issues which resulted into the volume of books I found in libraries decreasing). Still, nothing of the sort ever crossed my path.

My first loose thoughts on this:

If it is an original and a bronze one it is very rare. It is a portrait. The only criteria I have on my disposal that would help me evaluate itsa size is an Alexandersarmy photo that depicts 2 human figures next to it. It is a super- than- normal sized head that belongs to a statue of at least 4 meters high. It seems that it was made during the Hellenestic Era and of course I cannot see its back. However it is profound that it has suffered great damage. Since the head is in such a bad condition I cannot tell if it bears a band or not. I still cannot match it to any God figures which leaves us with the one option of it being a very important mortal, like a king or a very powerful man. I however do not favor the possibility of it depictning an athlete because this would be something somewhat unprecedented given its size.

Best regards
Πάντες άνθρωποι του ειδέναι ορέγονται φύσει
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by marcus »

chris_taylor wrote:
Chris, I missed this sentence before. Where did you get the cast, if I might ask? I've never seen one, even in the BM.
its this one
I worded my post very badly, so in case you must think I'm a total numpty - I know the bust extremely well (goodness knows how many times I've photographed it!) :D

Thanks for the info on the cast, though. I think I might well contact them to ask - I would love to have a copy of it. Not sure if I could afford it at the moment, but we'll see ... and it might not come to anything, anyway!
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by marcus »

chris_taylor wrote:I'm looking at the problem from the other end: there is a group of sculpture that is so unequivocally Alexander that I don't care whether an archeologist says they found it on top of Napoleon. If my fusiform gyrus says it's Alexander, then it is Alexander. I'm right and they're wrong. Period.

Lysimachos at Ephesos belongs to that group.

Then there are works of art where my fusiform gyrus returns "need more data for identification": the Schwarzenberg Alexander and most images on coins are examples. If experts say it's Alexander, I take their word for it.
All I can say is: :D :D
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

This is to all who have mentioned this issue.
Your post made me have another look for it. Hephaistion is spelt Hefestión in Spanish, and yes, it is at the Prado.

http://www.museodelprado.es/coleccion/g ... no_cache=1

The Spanish text that accompanies it translates reasonably well in Google: it hasn't been "identified" as Hephaistion, it has been hypothezised that it would not be unreasonable to assume it could be him, based on its similarity with an Alexander portrait in Copenhagen, which looks the same, except that one has ...

longer hair.

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

marcus wrote: I worded my post very badly, so in case you must think I'm a total numpty - I know the bust extremely well (goodness knows how many times I've photographed it!)


I added the link because *I* couldn't remember whether they had more than one bust. I thought it may help being sure: if the service isn't officially available anymore, you could twist their arm by insisting that you know they've got a cast already, so all they need to do is pour in the resin.

If you need to paint it yourself, I can tell you all about it. I've painted 1000 figures ...

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4785
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by marcus »

chris_taylor wrote:if the service isn't officially available anymore, you could twist their arm by insisting that you know they've got a cast already, so all they need to do is pour in the resin.

If you need to paint it yourself, I can tell you all about it. I've painted 1000 figures ...
A good strategy!

I'm not sure whether I'd want to paint it, or leave it "as is". Do you have a pic of your painted one that you'd be willing to share?

ATB
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

marcus wrote:I'm not sure whether I'd want to paint it, or leave it "as is". Do you have a pic of your painted one that you'd be willing to share?
https://picasaweb.google.com/christaylo ... 4005273090

The statue is mounted on the small pedestal, which is the colour of the resin.

The tall pedestal (on the photo that shows it in situ), was cast from concrete by a builder for about £ 15. You can pick up similar ones from garden centres at very reasonable prices.

HTH,

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by chris_taylor »

I emailed the Prado to find out what they think about the bronze bust that allegedly shows Hephaistion. This is the reply from the Head of Department for Renaissance & Classical Sculpture at the Museum:
"... identification of the head with Hephaistion was made a few years ago by Paolo Moreno, I think in his book about Hellenistic Sculpture, but I don't agree. "
IMHO, that settles the matter for now.

He also sent me the extract of their catalogue that deals with the statue. It indicates that contrary to some internet sites, the statue has been at the Prado at least since 1993. If anyone is interested, email me for a copy. The text is in German, but I'd be happy to help translate.

Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Head of Hephaestion

Post by Alexias »

Chris, thanks for the info and link. Do you know if there is a photo of the Copenhagen head they mention as I'm unclear which one it is?
Post Reply