Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

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agesilaos
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by agesilaos »

OK have finally found my local Persian and the word for eunuch is 'quadja' - now we need an expert in middle eastern morphology I bow out with the Greek and Latin :P
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Taphoi
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by Taphoi »

110gr010 wrote: I am very new about Alexander's history and this is the first time i am in this forum. As i said, i do not know a lot about Alexander, so i can not discuss about it, but i very concern about Alexander's relationship with Hephaistion and Bagoas. I search in the internet and i buy some books including "Alexander's lover" of Andrew Chugg. It is seem like that Bagoas is the most controversial figures. There some believe that the eunuch is not important to Alexander, but Andrew Chugg in his book "...Alexander's eunuch lover ranked among the most prominent and influential....", and he also said that " Arrian have attempted to write him[the eunuch] out of history because his existence poses problem for their versions of Alexander's character. After read the book and Andrew's strong demonstration about Bagoas, even though i do not like the idea that Bagoas is important to Alexander, but i have to admit that Andrew's demonstration is very strong and very near to the fact. But on the other hand, i think that maybe because i dot know much about ancient history, so i am easily to accept whatever the professional told me.
So, i came to this forum, because i want to hear opinion from a lot of people who had read the book. I want to know how many people agree with Andrwe Chugg. Or for the people who did not read the book yet, i want to know how many people think that Bagoas is important to Alexander.
Just to let people know, there is now a second edition of Alexander's Lovers available through online bookstores. It is 40 pages longer than the first edition and incorporates significant revisions throughout. It addresses some of the issues discussed in this thread and also has new sections on Alexander's divinity and on the funeral of Hephaistion. It is also available in Amazon's Kindle and some other ebook formats for the first time.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Alexander's Lover by Andrew Chugg - cover of the 2nd edition
Alexander's Lover by Andrew Chugg - cover of the 2nd edition
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lysis56
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by lysis56 »

Thank you for posting the info. on the 2nd Ed. Alexander's Lovers. I found the 1st Ed. it quite fascinating. I'll be sure to get the 2nd Ed. I like the cover for the 2nd. Ed. Is it your own rendering of the painting? I noticed you did some of the illustrations for the 1st Ed. Just cuious. I just noticed something I hadn't before in the cover. On the legs, feet of the figure said to be Hephaistion is some very interesting footwear. I have a piece of sclupture that is said to be that of Alexander's lower leg with footwear that looks amazingly similar. This is an interesting little detail.

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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

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lysis56 wrote:Thank you for posting the info. on the 2nd Ed. Alexander's Lovers. I found the 1st Ed. it quite fascinating. I'll be sure to get the 2nd Ed. I like the cover for the 2nd. Ed. Is it your own rendering of the painting? I noticed you did some of the illustrations for the 1st Ed. Just cuious. I just noticed something I hadn't before in the cover. On the legs, feet of the figure said to be Hephaistion is some very interesting footwear. I have a piece of sclupture that is said to be that of Alexander's lower leg with footwear that looks amazingly similar. This is an interesting little detail.
Hi Lysis.
Thanks for your kind comments. The cover of the second edition is not drawn by me, but is from a 19th century engraving of Sodoma's original fresco in my collection. I used it because it brings out details well (e.g. the footwear, as you have noted) and I was able to expand it across the whole cover area. That is to say that the print version of the second edition has the whole image as a wraparound cover (as shown below). I suspect that Sodoma used antique statues that were available in Rome during the Renaissance as the basis for some details, perhaps including Hephaistion's footwear. The architecture (even of the bed) has strong classical echoes too.
Best wishes,
Andrew
Alexander's Lovers wraparound cover
Alexander's Lovers wraparound cover
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ruthaki
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by ruthaki »

I believe there actually was a Bagoas who had first served Darius and was a rather prominent character in the Persian court. Not sure if this is the same Bagoas who Renault intended to portray in The Persian 'Boy. At any rate, these eunuchs were there to serve the king and pleasure him as needs be and the fact he was supposedly (and most likely) a very beautiful young man, that could have added to his influence in obtaining Alexander's attention.
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by Harry Hubbard »

Here it is...the final word about Bagoas. Searching for Bagoas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jso8C2HMYgA
agesilaos
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by agesilaos »

Herodotos I 135
But the Persians more than all men welcome foreign customs. They wear the Median dress, thinking it more beautiful than their own, and the Egyptian cuirass in war. Their luxurious practices are of all kinds, and all borrowed: the Greeks taught them pederasty. Every Persian marries many lawful wives, and keeps still more concubines.

ξεινικὰ δὲ νόμαια Πέρσαι προσίενται ἀνδρῶν μάλιστα. καὶ γὰρ δὴ τὴν Μηδικὴν ἐσθῆτα νομίσαντες τῆς ἑωυτῶν εἶναι καλλίω φορέουσι, καὶ ἐς τοὺς πολέμους τοὺς Αἰγυπτίους θώρηκας: καὶ εὐπαθείας τε παντοδαπὰς πυνθανόμενοι ἐπιτηδεύουσι, καὶ δὴ καὶ ἀπ᾽ Ἑλλήνων μαθόντες παισὶ μίσγονται. γαμέουσι δὲ ἕκαστος αὐτῶν πολλὰς μὲν κουριδίας γυναῖκας, πολλῷ δ᾽ ἔτι πλεῦνας παλλακὰς κτῶνται
Missing it six times does not speak highly of the depth of your reading HH, Plutarch denies this and states that the Persians had been shagging youths for ages, De Herodoti Malignitate.
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Paralus
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

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agesilaos wrote:Missing it six times does not speak highly of the depth of your reading HH...
HH was far more authoritative in a white lab coat.

The language is entertaining and rather enlightening. We destroy Curtius as a source on the basis that Darius had "a beautiful wife and two lovely daughters" and that Alexander (a verile "greatest warrior who ever lived") could not possibly shag a youth, sorry, indulge in "child molesting" a youth - eunuch or not. Curtius is "buffoonery". Nothing like religious righteousness as a basis for historical method. What, pray tell, do the "two lovely daughters" have to do with Darius' supposed child molestation? Answer: nothing. I note the old trope of "feminine eunuchs" gets a run too.

As for there being "nothing more to say and there never will be", I'm afraid not. A view fueled by modern religious morals and and old tropes allied with a remit to "attack the source and blow it wide open" with the agenda of removing a "dark and sinister cloud over the greatest warrior who ever lived" is hardly scholarship. Even for "would be classical scholars" Harry. Starting with an agenda - the greatest warrior of all time could not possibly have enjoyed a "bum chum" or two (in classic Aussie paralance) - and working to it Harry. Shame on you.

One last piece of candy, just what does busting "other supposed ancient classical writers" mean? Presumably you've demonstrated they've been busted as neither classical nor ancient or both? Or that they, too, are "buffoonery"?
Last edited by Paralus on Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

Post by Taphoi »

Harry Hubbard’s scholarship is truly enjoyable, for he has not only deduced that all the ancient sources have lied to us concerning Alexander’s sexual liaisons, but he has also asserted that he has found conclusive evidence for Alexander’s tomb being located in a cave in Illinois, USA together with “the entire crypt of the Ptolemaic Dynasty including Kleopatra”. Furthermore he has urgently directed the attentions of the world upon carvings of possible space aliens discovered in situ with the putative relics of the conqueror. I hope that Pothosians will take full advantage of the opportunity that he has kindly afforded them to test the incisiveness of his logic and the irrefutability of his evidence.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Paralus
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Re: Bagoas in "Alexander's Lover" of Andrew Chugg

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Taphoi wrote:Harry Hubbard’s scholarship is truly enjoyable..
Indeed it is, indeed it is! Much like revisiting Erich Von Daniken in fact. Just how did the venerable alien tracker miss that one do you think? Something of an oversight!
Taphoi wrote: I hope that Pothosians will take full advantage of the opportunity that he has kindly afforded them to test the incisiveness of his logic and the irrefutability of his evidence.
With you there. I can do so on this thread but I'm a little less certain on the tomb thread: Harry brings the imposing authority of his lab coat to that thread.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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