Barsine

[athenas owl]

So, I just finished a few books I bought and am working on Briant's "From Cyrus to Alexander", the translation by Peter T. Daniels. Oh, as an aside, we are having the snowiest, iciest weather since 1990 and that is the perfect book for this...a big fat tome full of information. Something like 1200 pages in total...

Anyway...after reading Maria Brosius' book on Persian women and now wading into this..a thought struck me. There is much discussion about Alexander not marrying Barsine, or if Artabazus' was offended when ATG married Roxane or that Heracles was not considered, etc.

Artabazus was married, we are told, to the Rhodian sister of Mentor and Memnon. Yet, Artabazus was a high born Persian noble, the grandson of a Great King. Certainly he ruled a part of the empire where Greek influences were strong on the culture and Barsine was said to have been raised in the Greek ways, but still, he was a Persian noble, a Satrap with his own court and ritual (at least before his exile) and even after he returned from Macedon, he was a loyal supporter of the Great King. A Greek wife might have been a bit too scandalous for the Persian court?

As a high born noble, would he have really married the sister of Greek mercenaries? Rather, perhaps, she was one of his women, or the woman of the satrapal palace, and not a legitimate wife (in the eyes of his fellow aristocrats). I have always had problems with the idea that one woman bore 21 children, anyway...and we "know" that his last wife and a young son, were found at Damascus, along with other family members including Barsine. Perhaps he had other "real" wives as well, the actual mothers of most of his children.

Illegitmate children seem to have been part of the family and acknowledged. Illegitmate sons of the Great King could be given satrapies. But marrying Barsine off to the Greek mercenaries does seem a bit less than respectable for a legitimate Persian noblewoman (a great granddaughter of a Great King). Here, I may be in error, that Artabazus was not so far removed from his own Persian heritage that he'd actually marry the Greek mercenaries' sister. However valuable they might have been, and eventually bound by some family relationships. But no other daughters that we know of were married to either Mentor or Memnon. Instead Barsine alone was passed onto Memnon, when Mentor had died. I can't remember, but was Thymondas known to have married a Persian woman either? He possibly had a son named Memnon, but there is no mention of a Persian or any wife I believe.

So...Barsine, though a child of Artabazus, may not have been legitimate in the eyes of the Persians, including her father, and hence her place as a "woman of the King (ATG)" was quite acceptable to Artabazus and to Barsine as well. As she was not of pure Persian blood, and perhaps not even legitimate, the fact that she wasn't a proper choice for the new "Great King" was understood all around. Being a "Woman of the King" was not a bad thing at all...much different than the Greek perception of a concubine. And though being a "Woman of the King" was a respectable status, her situation may have precluded her marriage to said King. Perhaps being a Royal concubine was a great deal for her. Her marriage options may have been limited.

Her sisters who were later married to Ptolemy and Eumenes were not taken as ATG's concubines. Were they too young to have been in Macedonia during the exile? Or were they legitmate, the daughters of a "proper" Persian wife, and so, off limits for forging a bond to Artabazus' family that would not have entailed marrying them, especially so soon in the campaign? Well, that, and the fact that Barsine was twice widowed...this certainly would have been an issue for a legitmate heir to the throne for ATG...I think.

[Paralus]

So, I just finished a few books I bought and am working on Briant's "From Cyrus to Alexander", the translation by Peter T. Daniels. Oh, as an aside, we are having the snowiest, iciest weather since 1990 and that is the perfect book for this...a big fat tome full of information. Something like 1200 pages in total....

Time for bed (here) but thought I'd pop off a quckie.

This is an excellent tome. That one person can be across such an amount of source material is hard to imagine (plenty of Phd students??). Try - as much as possible - to go from start to finish. There is a thesis at work throughout that will be lost in the skipping. It is well worth the time invested.

A book that can't be too highly recommended. You've bought well. Then again, you may have been bought for well.

[athenas owl]

It is a great book..that I bought myself...though the Xmas fund got a bit smaller (we'll skip the big booze binge... ).

Been skipping around a bit at first, just to find out some things I was curious about. I start at the beginning and then something I read sends me off on a tangent.

I shall be more disciplined shortly. I am curious about the thesis you mention. Love the steeping away from the Western Perspective.

My French is pathetic (took it as a child and promptly forgot most of it), but the translation seems wonderful. It's very readable. If I had a complaint at all it is his illustrations. They are there...but they don't seem to be really connected to the text that much. Thankfully I have a dandy map of Iran and one of the region of the former Achaemenid Empire, so it's not a big deal that the few maps (except the one that focuses on the Zagros!) are not that useful.

It is my winter project..that is certain.

I love that in his discussions of the cities of the Achaemenid, ones that he mentions, like Liduma and even perhaps Matezzis have since been thought to have been found since he published in the mid 90's.

[Paralus]

Been skipping around a bit at first, just to find out some things I was curious about. I start at the beginning and then something I read sends me off on a tangent.

That, I'm afraid, is inevitable. You will find that, necessarily, Briant also skips occasionally - mostly when discussing particular topics and comparing to later times for example. The trick is to try and resist. One I did not exactly master.

I shall be more disciplined shortly. I am curious about the thesis you mention. Love the steeping away from the Western Perspective.

The perspective is a good part of it: it is an "Iranian" history not a city state-filtered view of it. Therefore a logical and very small component is the dismissal of the "outstanding Greek valour versus thoroughly incontinent Persian numbers" meme. The view of the Persian monarchy is fully developed as are the relationships between the monarch and his "Friends" to name a couple of legs. It makes one hell of a change from the Aristotlian/Isokratic/Xenophontic view of "born to serfdom/despotic weaklings/soft and unmanly" Iranians that we have been force-fed by the Hellenocentric source material. History, in the tired but true adage, is written through the thickly applied filter of the victor.

I love that in his discussions of the cities of the Achaemenid, ones that he mentions, like Liduma and even perhaps Matezzis have since been thought to have been found since he published in the mid 90's.

Yes the work is a life effort - bit like Anson's Eumenes - and so a line on the various sections needed to be drawn at some stage. Matters have progressed even in the few years it took for a translation to be done. I think, from memory, Brian mentions wanting to put some of this (or did) online so as to keep aspects of his magisterial "Iranian historical encyclopaedia" current.

Believe I shall take it with me and do some re-reading this holiday with the family...

[marcus]

It is a great book..that I bought myself...though the Xmas fund got a bit smaller (we'll skip the big booze binge... ).

I've been wanting to get and read this for a long while, and have always found good reasons not to spend the money. After reading these posts I think I might have to bite the bullet, credit crunch notwithstanding, and allow myself a post-Christmas present to myself. As I haven't yet (most unusually) bought myself any pre-Christmas presents, I'm sure I can justify that ...

Having said that, I still have 5 unread Alexander/Philip tomes on the shelf, am half-way through Brosius' "Women in Ancient Persia" and am also slogging through a not-particularly-stimulating history of the Seljuks; so even if I were to purchase Briant it might be a while before I actually get to read it!

ATB

[jan]

Thanks, Athena Owl, for bringing this book by Pierre Briant to my attention. I did a search to learn what I can about it and read a few pages...did not learn yet if I can obtain it at a library or not. Will try to do it if I can. A used copy at Amazon was $143. which is a little steep for my budget right now too. At Borders, used books always go up when they fall in this category..I have learned. I hope you will keep us posted with your opinion of the book.

[ruthaki]

I just love this site for the information I glean from it. I haven't visited in awhile but happen to be writing a bit including Barsine just now in the last part of my novel. So I found this post very useful. One question though, I understood from previous research that it was Barsine's daughters (not sisters) who married Eumenes and Niarchos.

[jan]

Since reading this post about Barsine, I found that I could order a copy of Briant's book at Border's and was able to get a nearly new copy which was finally delivered today. It does remind me a bit of Dodge's book on Alexander in its display of illustrations. I reread all posts here again to again remind myself of what was said, and will take everything stated her as a guide when reading it. I enjoy the translation style very much, and loved the introductory quotation about ancient history, Whether it is true or not, it is important to believe in ancient history. I thought that was choice.

In the meantime I am also reading Steve Berry's book The Charlemagne Pursuit, and am enjoying his intriguing discussion of Charlemagne and his theory of the origins of the earth plot.

Plus Kate Moss's Sepulchre...trying to read too many books at once, as I am also swallowing whole Philippe Erlanger's version of King Louis XIV.

So what did I need to do more but than to buy a book by Pierre Briant, whose small illustrated book of Alexander I also have. I love his colored illustration of the Palaces of Persepolis anyway.

But as I quoted earlier that on amazon the Cyrus to Alexander book costs $143, it was only $87. at Border's which I considered a steal at that point so ordered it, wondering at my mind. Happily, it does look as though it is collector's quality as well as chock full of great information.

I have this great desire to see a good movie of Alexander made but with the Persian background much more prevalent, so it was a must for that reason alone.

Thanks again. Jan

[Paralus]

But as I quoted earlier that on amazon the Cyrus to Alexander book costs $143, it was only $87. at Border's which I considered a steal at that point so ordered it, wondering at my mind. Happily, it does look as though it is collector's quality as well as chock full of great information.

You've been ripped-off. I don't quite understand the fuss over the price. It always pays to check out the publisher, in this case, Eisenbrauns. If anything is a steal, $71.55 is. Particularly as it is brand spanking new.

Bugger! I paid $79.50 last year. Perhaps I shall write requesting a delayed 10% discount!

[jan]

thanks as I am having a fit of laughter now...however, relating to Persia, I visited the local art museum to see Elihu Vedder's illustrations for Omar Khayyam's The Rubaiyat last Tuesday. It was a very interesting display and proved how these illustrations helped to support Vedder for the remaining years of his life. What interested me most was the fact that Edward Fitzgerald had taught himself to read Persian to translate the poetry into English so that some of the poems are considered as much Fitzgerald as Khayyam. It was a great way to spend an afternoon.

By the way, I mentioned price because in the original posts someone made a remark about the costs...but for that amount of knowledge crammed into one book, it is really quite reasonable!

[Theseus]

I always like a good read and this book sounds like something I'd enjoy. I've found a copy for $75.00 but am still searching. I am not one to get "hung" up over the cost of something like this so I won't search for long.
Thanks for the information on this book. I should always come here for suggestions on interesting books. Why haven't I learned that by now?