Olympius Jelousy ?

[jasonxx]

I started this post to talk about maybe olympius over egagerated jelousy towards Philip.

Was it that or maybe her own power games agendas. As I think one of the Famous Roman Emperors women I think Neros Mother.

I cant see how she was so eaten up with jelousy or the feeling of the woman scorned when It was the norm for the men to put it about and monogomy wasnt the done thing. Its kinda like todays so called celebrities they court fame knowing the media intrusion etc, when they start getting it they moan like hell.

Olympius was a clever woman which we could all accept and for me it was all about power to her and the legitimate claim to the throne for her precious son. I wouldnt call it jelousy it was all about control and keeping hold of what she had at all costs or whatever it took. Including having Philip killed and the elimination of all those that may have been a threat to Alexanders accesion. We could even assume that as well asPhilp Marrying her for political reasons. She maybe did the same.

Mary the king beget him a son and bobs your uncle ive got the cream. The jelousy is a little over played maybe to make Olympius look a bit more demented and neurotic than she really was. Besides it serves the winners best to make the king look strong and great and the wife look a little crazy.

Kenny

[ruthaki]

I wouldn't compare Olympias with todays celebrities. She had much more power and grandeur than any of the Hollywoodites. I also believe she has been seriously maligned by historians and blamed of a lot of things (including Philip's assassination) which she may not have been guilty of. (although I, myself, don't doubt she had some hand in it).
She had every right to feel maligned by his choice of a younger, pure Macedonian wife. She wasn't Macedonian, but an Epirote. And Philip obviously married her for political reasons just has he had married his many other wives. Although they say there was a big love/hate reliationship there and she was a pretty powerful woman. Remember she was convinced she'd been visited (and impregnated) by the God and considered her son a godly creature so she intended to make sure that it was Alexander, not some other offspring of Philip's who would inherit the throne. Philip was reputedly a drunken lout at times and apparantly had his share of lovers (male and female). So no wonder she was jealous and angry with him! She had every right to be.

[pankration]

I wouldn't compare Olympias with todays celebrities. She had much more power and grandeur than any of the Hollywoodites. I also believe she has been seriously maligned by historians and blamed of a lot of things (including Philip's assassination) which she may not have been guilty of. (although I, myself, don't doubt she had some hand in it).
She had every right to feel maligned by his choice of a younger, pure Macedonian wife. She wasn't Macedonian, but an Epirote. And Philip obviously married her for political reasons just has he had married his many other wives. Although they say there was a big love/hate reliationship there and she was a pretty powerful woman. Remember she was convinced she'd been visited (and impregnated) by the God and considered her son a godly creature so she intended to make sure that it was Alexander, not some other offspring of Philip's who would inherit the throne. Philip was reputedly a drunken lout at times and apparantly had his share of lovers (male and female). So no wonder she was jealous and angry with him! She had every right to be.

Olympias had many of her own lovers. Her jealousy was probably not of Philip but of any children that might stand in the way of Alexander. Every contemporary and near contemporary historian agrees that she loved Alexander above all else. There are accounts that she may even been in on the plot to assassinate Philip. Make no mistake, she was highly intelligent, reportedly beautiful, ruthless and ambitious. My type of woman.

[ruthaki]

I wouldn't compare Olympias with todays celebrities. She had much more power and grandeur than any of the Hollywoodites. I also believe she has been seriously maligned by historians and blamed of a lot of things (including Philip's assassination) which she may not have been guilty of. (although I, myself, don't doubt she had some hand in it).
She had every right to feel maligned by his choice of a younger, pure Macedonian wife. She wasn't Macedonian, but an Epirote. And Philip obviously married her for political reasons just has he had married his many other wives. Although they say there was a big love/hate reliationship there and she was a pretty powerful woman. Remember she was convinced she'd been visited (and impregnated) by the God and considered her son a godly creature so she intended to make sure that it was Alexander, not some other offspring of Philip's who would inherit the throne. Philip was reputedly a drunken lout at times and apparantly had his share of lovers (male and female). So no wonder she was jealous and angry with him! She had every right to be.

Sorry, I did the quote thing wrong. I meant to quote the last postings "Olypmias had many lovers" Where did you find this information? I would love to see some sources that quote this and name names. From what I've read she lead a pretty solitary life in Epiros (running the country on behalf of her young grandson as Kleopatra was gone) and waiting for her son (Alexander) to return, (as well as carrying on her long-standing feud with Antipater). I have never seen any evidence of Olympias having lovers. Though it seems remarkable that a beautiful strong woman like her wouldn't.

Olympias had many of her own lovers. Her jealousy was probably not of Philip but of any children that might stand in the way of Alexander. Every contemporary and near contemporary historian agrees that she loved Alexander above all else. There are accounts that she may even been in on the plot to assassinate Philip. Make no mistake, she was highly intelligent, reportedly beautiful, ruthless and ambitious. My type of woman.

[ruthaki]

Oops, that last posting of mine came over all wrong. I had only intended to quote "Olypias had many lovers" but the whole message I sent got garbled. The last part of it is quoted from the previous person's post.

[pankration]

There is no question that Olympias was a highly intelligent, impulsive woman who may or may not have contributed to the assassination of her husband and the later murders of his last wife and child. Her sexual appetites are guessed at as historians agree that she was a Dionysian and part of that worship involved singing and dancing in the woods as well as sexual orgies. There is no reason to doubt that she took part in these exercises. However, there is one catch: it was also rumored that her womb (or other female parts) were sealed shut by Zeus after he impregnated her with Alexander. A kind of immaculate conception?

[marcus]

There is no question that Olympias was a highly intelligent, impulsive woman who may or may not have contributed to the assassination of her husband and the later murders of his last wife and child. Her sexual appetites are guessed at as historians agree that she was a Dionysian and part of that worship involved singing and dancing in the woods as well as sexual orgies. There is no reason to doubt that she took part in these exercises. However, there is one catch: it was also rumored that her womb (or other female parts) were sealed shut by Zeus after he impregnated her with Alexander. A kind of immaculate conception?

I've always wondered how true the stories of the 'orgy' side of Dionysiac worship are. One certainly gets the impression of rather lascivious gatherings, but to what extent those arise from the fact that the rites were secret ... and people have always read naughtiness into such things.

As the wife of the king, and mother of the heir, I find it harder to believe that Olympias would have jeopardised her position by cavorting with other sundry men - unless she wanted people like Attalus to have more reason to doubt Alexander's paternity. As an intelligent woman, would she not have realised how dangerous such behaviour might have been?

Having said that, the very secret nature of the Dionysiac rites makes it unlikely that, were she to have indulged to the full, the names or occasions of any ... er ... friends would be known.

ATB

[amyntoros]

Her sexual appetites are guessed at as historians agree that she was a Dionysian and part of that worship involved singing and dancing in the woods as well as sexual orgies.

Ah, but The Bacchae, written in Macedonia, shows us that men were strictly forbidden from attending the orgiastic rites on the mountains – that’s “orgiastic” as in riotously drunken merrymaking and not frenzied sexual activity. And men were not supposed to be involved in certain other aspects of worship. When Demosthenes attempted to discredit Aeschines he used Aeschines’ involvement in the rituals of Dionysos Sabazius as an example of the kind of behavior not expected from a righteous citizen. It does give us an idea of what was involved though.

As a child you were raised in utter poverty … when you became a man you read the service while your mother performed the initiations and prepared the ritual equipment. At night you put the fawn-skins on the initiates by wiping them down with mud and bran, and you stood up after the lustration and proclaimed, ‘I have escaped evil, and found a better way …’ During the day you led the sacred bands through the streets, with their heads wreathed in crowns of fennel and white poplar. As you went you squeezed the Asclepian snakes and raised them over your head shouting ‘euhoe Saboi” and dancing ‘hyes attes atttes hyes.’ You were greeted by old women as Conductor and Leader and Ivy-bearer and Carrier of the Winnowing Fan, and you were paid with sops, twisted rolls and new cakes.” (Translation from Women’s Life in Greece and Rome, by Mary R. Lefkowitz and Maureen B. Fant.)

As you can see, Demosthenes made no reference to sexual misconduct. Surely he would have done so if it were true because it would have helped his case against Aeschines. But sexual activity at such events would have brought shame and discredit on the women and the whole religious rites of Dionysos. These ceremonies were an opportunity for women to gather together (and they had few such opportunities) to drink and to celebrate freely. Yet they were, strange though it is to our eyes, deeply religious occasions. No Greek male would have condoned his wife or daughter’s attendance if he thought that they were sleeping with other men – not even Philip! Sauce for the gander was allowed, but never the goose. The idea that Dionysian worship included sexual orgies began with Romans around 186 BC. They banned the worship of Dionysos because it involved belonging to a “secret” society (always the cause of much suspicion) from which arose all kinds of accusations of misconduct. It may well have been true by that time, but we know that the Romans changed many aspects of worship when they adopted foreign gods.

The myth of impregnation by a god is a whole other matter – nothing to do with immorality - and I think it’s interesting that no ancient writer accuses Olympias of sexual misconduct no matter how much they seem to dislike her. I don’t believe that any modern scholar has done so either.

Best regards,

[sikander]

Greetings,

This is an interesting topic..

Amyntoros said:" and I think it’s interesting that no ancient writer accuses Olympias of sexual misconduct no matter how much they seem to dislike her."

Exactly. I would tend to think that the rites involved not orgiastic behaviour as in sexual misconduct, but ritualized blood sacrifice.. this alone would have created a mythos of powerful mystery and rites forbidden to men..

Regards,
Sikander

[azara]

Euripides in the Bacchae stresses the fact that the women, glimpsed by some herdsmen on the mountain, show a perfectly decent behaviour until they sense the presence of intruders, and then they become terrible, but what they do has nothing to do with sex. He is resolute in refuting the allegations of sexual misconduct as slander. Dionysiac cult probably had its focus in the act of killing the God (under the symbolic form of an animal), and then eating his flesh and drinking his blood, in order to attain immortality. This meant reliving the Passion, Death and Resurrection of baby Dionysos torn to pieces by the Titans, but it rings a bell, doesn't it?
Best regards
Azara

[Beatriki]

I started this post to talk about maybe olympius over egagerated jelousy towards Philip

Was it that or maybe her own power games agendas. As I think one of the Famous Roman Emperors women I think Neros Mother.

I cant see how she was so eaten up with jelousy or the feeling of the woman scorned when It was the norm for the men to put it about and monogomy wasnt the done thing. Its kinda like todays so called celebrities they court fame knowing the media intrusion etc, when they start getting it they moan like hell.

Olympius was a clever woman which we could all accept and for me it was all about power to her and the legitimate claim to the throne for her precious son. I wouldnt call it jelousy it was all about control and keeping hold of what she had at all costs or whatever it took. Including having Philip killed and the elimination of all those that may have been a threat to Alexanders accesion. We could even assume that as well asPhilp Marrying her for political reasons. She maybe did the same.

Mary the king beget him a son and bobs your uncle ive got the cream. The jelousy is a little over played maybe to make Olympius look a bit more demented and neurotic than she really was. Besides it serves the winners best to make the king look strong and great and the wife look a little crazy.

Kenny

I don't think Olympias was jealous towards Philip, she just cared about her son Alexander and her position as the mother queen being in danger. To me she never loved Philip, or at least not in a romantic way.

Olympias has almost always been portrayed as a bad woman, and she has been really underestimated. The whole thing about her sexual behavior could have been told to discredit her even more. We must have in mind what Angelina Jolie said about her character, she was a woman living on really difficult times, and looking for her survival and that of her son. I always say that Philip created Alexander, and Olympias created Alexander the Great. Or do you think that without the influence of her mother, Alexander could have believed in himself the way he did? He sure had qualities for generalship, but it was Olympias who made him believe he could do anything. She must have been an admirable woman, she sure has great qualities many women today should emulate: a strong personality, intelligence, and they say ruthless?? But how was she going to survive being a saint?

Boys and girls, if anyone gave birth to the myth of Alexander, it was her mother

Well, I admire Olympias, as can be appreciated ... no, really, I think that more historians should treat her independently and not only as the mother of Alexander the Great... she is as intriguing as her son or even more. How many books could be written about her personality? They would be endless, but almost no one have tried. Only one or two that I know about. If you guys know more books about her, tell me

Kisses, Beatriki

[jasonxx]

I think Alexander was influenced equaly by Philip and his mother. As in another threat I believe Alexander became Great in spite of his father.

Maybe it was cruel to be kind tactics by Philip that made Alexander tough and say up yours ill show you. And undoubtedly Olympius must have inviked supreme confidence in her son. I dont think Olympius treatment of Alexander is different to a million mothers. All mothers feel there children are kings Queens etc. Maybe Olympius made Alexander believe it more.

kenny

[jasonxx]

we will fight in the shade

[Beatriki]

I think Alexander was influenced equaly by Philip and his mother. As in another threat I believe Alexander became Great in spite of his father.

Maybe it was cruel to be kind tactics by Philip that made Alexander tough and say up yours ill show you. And undoubtedly Olympius must have inviked supreme confidence in her son. I dont think Olympius treatment of Alexander is different to a million mothers. All mothers feel there children are kings Queens etc. Maybe Olympius made Alexander believe it more.

kenny

That's exactly what I was trying to say Philip taught him the strategies and gave him the biggest and better army ever made, but it was Olympias who inspired that enormous confidence in everything he did. Maybe without the influence of Olympias he would have conquered the Persian Empire and organized it, but nothing more... AND without Philip's army, he couldn't have conquered the way he did, since his main power in battles was the phalanx

Kisses, Beatriki

[jasonxx]

To make a pie you need both the crust and the filling. You cant make it with just the one