Gunpowder plot

Discuss Alexander's generals, wives, lovers, family and enemies

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marcus
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Post by marcus »

dean wrote:Just after checking the dates of Philip's marriage to Cleopatra and his assassination I see that there are 2 years. Now in theory, 2 years is more than enough time to have two children to my mind- (and if Cleopatra was pregnant at the time of the wedding, more so- ) I wonder how far we are to believe in the behaviour of Olympias- and her cruelty towards Cleopatra and her "children?" Could she have been that bad?
Although in fact it's not entirely clear when Philip did marry Cleopatra. The actual chronology is somewhat hazy for that period, with only a couple of certainties - ie. Chaeronea and Philip's death.

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dean
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date of Philip's marriage

Post by dean »

Hello Marcus,

when I looked up the year of the marriage I have to admit that I looked at a timeline on the internet(can't remember which one) and found 338BC and then of course 336 for the murder but will try to look at it in a bit more detail later.
(either way, if it is so hazy, I can't see why Heckel would completely discount the possibility of Caranus having ever existed)
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Dean
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Post by amyntoros »

Coral wrote:I wonder, did Philip, who loved marriage as a useful political tool, ever wonder whether his sons would immediately kill each other on his death?
IGÇÖm not sure that he would have cared one way or the other. He needed to produce viable heirs while he was alive to keep the MacedonianGÇÖs happy, but I doubt it mattered to him what these heirs might do after his death. If the little stories we hear about his attitude towards Alexander are not apocryphal then Philip certainly had pride in his son, but IMHO everything he did was for his own glory and the glory of Macedonia (which was one and the same in those days). I really suspect that the GÇ£Son, one day all this will be yoursGÇ¥ vignette was rarely seen under ancient monarchies. (And now I canGÇÖt get Monty PythonGÇÖs GÇ£But father, I want to SINGGÇ¥ out of my head!) :lol:
dean wrote:when I looked up the year of the marriage I have to admit that I looked at a timeline on the internet(can't remember which one) and found 338BC and then of course 336 for the murder but will try to look at it in a bit more detail later.
Elizabeth Carney in Women and Monarchy in Macedonia says that Philip married Cleopatra after Chaeroneia, probably in the summer or early fall of 337, and Europa was born in late summer or fall of 336. The only way that I can see the Caranus GÇ£two childrenGÇ¥ theory working is to propose that Cleopatra was already pregnant when she married Philip (although Plutarch, Alexander 9.6 calls her a maiden) and that she gave birth shortly afterwards and then became pregnant again almost immediately. ItGÇÖs not impossible given that she wouldnGÇÖt have nursed her own child, but itGÇÖs not the greatest of probabilities, I admit.
marcus wrote:Nice one. I was fairly sure that the son was only mentioned in Justin, but I didn't have time to look it up. I'm surprised that Heckel doesn't include the Pausanias ref, even though the name isn't mentioned - it would still refer to Caranus, real or no.
Yeah, I found it curious that Heckel didnGÇÖt include the Pausanias reference. Then this morning I decided to put together a file for Cleopatra (will send it to you later GÇô itGÇÖs really short). While working with HeckelGÇÖs entry for Cleopatra, I remembered that he has a reference to PlutarchGÇÖs Alexander listed under Caranus GÇô the reference is to PhilipGÇÖs wedding and Heckel thinks that Caranus is clearly nothing more than the son who, Alexander feared, might have fulfilled AttalusGÇÖ wish. The following is the quote from Plutarch:
Plutarch Alexander 9.7-8 Attalus, now, was the girl's uncle, and being in his cups, he called upon the Macedonians to ask of the gods that from Philip and Cleopatra there might be born a legitimate successor to the kingdom. At this Alexander was exasperated, and with the words, "But what of me, base wretch? Dost thou take me for a bastard?" threw a cup at him.
Prior to the above excerpt though, thereGÇÖs also this:
Plutarch, Alexander 9.6 The most open quarrel was brought on by Attalus at the marriage of Cleopatra, a maiden whom Philip was taking to wife, having fallen in love with the girl when he was past the age for it.
I must have read the short paragraph in his book a dozen times because I canGÇÖt believe it, but neither reference is given under HeckelGÇÖs entry for Cleopatra! Very, very strange, indeed.

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Amyntoros

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dean
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Post by dean »

Hello,

On Wikipedia there is a mention of Cleopatra-
Eurydice (Ευρυδικη), born Cleopatra (Κλεοπάτρα). Mid. 4th century BCE Macedonian noblewoman, niece of Attalus, and 5th wife1 of Philip II of Macedon.

Eurydice (Ευρυδικη), born Cleopatra (Κλεοπάτρα). Mid. 4th century BCE Macedonian noblewoman, niece of Attalus, and 5th wife1 of Philip II of Macedon.

She married Philip either in 338 or 337 BCE. As Philip's wife, Cleopatra was given the name "Eurydice". Although Philip was a polygamist, his marriage to Cleopatra was unique - upon marrying Cleopatra, he repudiated his third wife Olympias as an adulteress, and pronounced their son, Alexander, to be illegitimate.

According to both Justin4 and Satyrus 5, Cleopatra Eurydice and Philip produced two children - Europa, a girl, and Caranus (or "Keranos"), a boy. Tarn ignores Europa entirely and disputes even the existence of Caranus.

Following Philip's assassination, Europa and Caranus were murdered by Olympias, whereupon Cleopatra took her own life6. Peter Green strongly suggests that Alexander ordered the death of Caranus, but that Europa and Cleopatra's fatalities were the result of Olympias's vindictiveness.
I would have put a link but I haven't got that bit worked out just yet.

I hate to pick fault because I think that the project of Wikipedia is excellent but I found the closing statement about Philip pronouncing his son to be illegitimate a little bit off mark.
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Dean
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Post by marcus »

dean wrote:I would have put a link but I haven't got that bit worked out just yet.
Don't worry - every time I do it I have to remind myself how to do it.
I hate to pick fault because I think that the project of Wikipedia is excellent but I found the closing statement about Philip pronouncing his son to be illegitimate a little bit off mark.
Well, it's not a very long article, and it's hardly rigorous in its source work - basically it uses just Justin (through a modern interpretation, by the looks of it - probably Green) and does not introduce any of the discussion. But at least the thing about Wikipedia is that it can be edited - if I had time I'd do it now, but anyone else could do it ... :wink:

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