Gunpowder plot

[Vanessa Howard]

I'm reading Antonia Fraser's 'The Gunpowder Plot' and one of the conspirators, Sir Everard Digby, writes before his execution to urge two friends 'to support each other as brothers and to avoid the bad examples of Cain and Abel and Philip of Macedon's sons (one of whom had murdered the other)'.

This can't mean Alexander and Arrhidaeus - perhaps I'm missing something very obvious here and I'm sure the board will help enlighten me. Or is it a misconception Sir Everard held and Ms Fraser mistakenly included?

[dean]

Hello,

At Alexander's accession, Cleopatra's baby Caranus was killed- who would have been technically Alexander's half-brother- according to Peter Green it was Alexander who ordered the murder.

Best regards,
Dean

[Vanessa Howard]

Thanks Dean - that's food for thought - I'm also wondering if Alexander was perceived as bloodthirsty characters at that period in time. I guess ATG's story over the last two thousand years has been through any number of changes.

Vx

[marcus]

I'm reading Antonia Fraser's 'The Gunpowder Plot' and one of the conspirators, Sir Everard Digby, writes before his execution to urge two friends 'to support each other as brothers and to avoid the bad examples of Cain and Abel and Philip of Macedon's sons (one of whom had murdered the other)'.

This can't mean Alexander and Arrhidaeus - perhaps I'm missing something very obvious here and I'm sure the board will help enlighten me. Or is it a misconception Sir Everard held and Ms Fraser mistakenly included?

Blimey! I'll have to go and look at that. I read about half of that book last year (as I was having to teach the GP Plot), but didn't get to finish it (because I then had to learn another topic - darn all this modern history we have to teach in schools these days! ).

It is possible that Digby was referring to the child of Cleopatra/Eurydice, and probably the 17th century view was that Alexander was responsible for the baby's death. That is something that still attracts some discussion from time to time - as Dean says, Green for one accuses Alexander of complicity at least. Otherwise, I don't know what he meant (and if the parentheses are Antonia Fraser's, then I don't know what/who she means, either!).

ATB

[Vanessa Howard]

Hi Marcus

The parentheses are Fraser's - so, yes, it stopped me in my tracks (pg 279). Will scoot off to find out more about Cleopatra/Eurydice, thank you. Out of interest, does Classical history crop up at all in history lessons today?

Vx

[amyntoros]

Not the greatest of examples, is it, using Alexander and Caranus as an example of what could happen if brothers don't 'support each other', one being a grown man and the other a mere infant?

Btw, haven't there been some major debates as to whether Caranus even existed?

Best regards,

[dean]

Hello,

I think it wsa Tarn who believed and reasoned that Cleopatra's supposed offspring- a girl and boy, were a pure fabrication.

Best wishes,
Dean

[marcus]

Hi Vanessa,

The parentheses are Fraser's - so, yes, it stopped me in my tracks (pg 279). Will scoot off to find out more about Cleopatra/Eurydice, thank you. Out of interest, does Classical history crop up at all in history lessons today?

I just had a look in my copy of the book, but couldn't find it. Can you give me a page ref?

The National Curriculum for Key Stage 3 does allow for some study of the Romans, but it is expected that pupils will have "done" the Greeks at Key Stage 2 (primary school). Nobody seems to care that they therefore learn little or nothing of any real use. To be honest, there aren't that many secondary schools that even do the Romans - in mine we get 8 lessons to "do" the Romans ... and that was only allowed after a lot of wrangling (and because I was joining the staff and have my degree in ancient history).

So we're going to use an after school History Club to do some archaeology, and I said "great, so we'll just do Classical Archaeology". We'll see ...

[marcus]

Not the greatest of examples, is it, using Alexander and Caranus as an example of what could happen if brothers don't 'support each other', one being a grown man and the other a mere infant?

Btw, haven't there been some major debates as to whether Caranus even existed?

Best regards,

Indeed. There is still debate over whether Eurydice had a boy, or a boy and a girl. I think I'm secure in saying that she definitely had a daughter, but certainly the existence of Caranus is subject to (probably very genteel) argument.

ATB

[karen]

There is still debate over whether Eurydice had a boy, or a boy and a girl. I think I'm secure in saying that she definitely had a daughter, but certainly the existence of Caranus is subject to (probably very genteel) argument.

Sources!

I'm off to search him at Susan's site... nothing there, by either spelling.

Amyntoros (aka Source Goddess) can you please look him up in Who's Who and see who mentioned him?

Warmly,
Karen

[Taphoi]

Perseus, the elder son of Philip V of Macedon, was implicated in the death of his younger brother Demetrius.

Cordially,

Andrew

[amyntoros]

Source Goddess indeed! Well, I suppose itGÇÖs better than some of the things IGÇÖve been called!

I see that Taphoi has explained the quote from Antonia Frazer, but as you asked about Caranus . . .

I checked HeckelGÇÖs WhoGÇÖs Who in the Age of Alexander the Great; he calls Caranus a Non-existent son of Phillip II and says Since CleopatraGÇÖs child turned out to be a daughter, Europa, and there was no time for a second child to be born before CleopatraGÇÖs murder in 336, Caranus must be dismissed as an invention. The only source is Justin, as I suspected.

Justin 9.7.3 As for Alexander, it is said that he feared his brother by his step-mother as a rival for the throne; and hence it happened that he had previously quarrelled at a banquet, first with Attalus, and afterwards with his father himself, insomuch that Philip pursued him even with his drawn sword, and was hardly prevented from killing him by the entreaties of his friends.

Justin 11.2.1-3 His first care was about his fatherGÇÖs funeral, when he caused all who had been privy to his murder to be put to death at his burial-place. The only one that he spared was Alexander Lyncestes his brother, preserving in him the man who had first acknowledged his royal authority, for he had been the first to salute him king. His brother Caranus, a rival for the throne, as being the son of his step-mother, he ordered to be slain.

In contrast, there's an excerpt of Justin that tells of the daughter by Cleopatra:

Justin 9.7.8 Next she forced Cleopatra, for whose sake she had been divorced from Philip, to hang herself, having first killed her daughter in her lap, and enjoyed the sight of her suffering this vengeance, to which she had hastened by procuring the death of her husband.

Pausanias also says Cleopatra had a son. This reference isnGÇÖt to be found in HeckelGÇÖs book, probably because the child isnGÇÖt mentioned by name.

Pausanias VIII.7.6-7 And this soon turned out not to refer to the Persians but to Philip himself: [7] and when he died Olympias took his baby son, the child of AttalosGÇÖ niece Kleopatra, and murdered the child and the mother together by dragging them on to a bronze oven filled with fire, and later she killed Aridaios.

Interestingly, Justin 9.8.1-2 tells of other sons of Philip: Philip died at the age of forty-seven, after having reigned twenty-five years. He had, by a dancing girl of Larissa, a son named Aridaeus, who reigned after Alexander. He had also many others by several wives, as is not unusual with princes, some of whom died a natural death, and others by the sword. And again at 12.7.(?) we hear of brothers: Parmenio and Philotas, his cousin Amyntas, his murdered stepmother and brothers, with Attalus, Eurylochus, Pausanias, and other slaughtered nobles of Macedonia, presented themselves to his imagination.

And there you have it. I think I gave all the references but IGÇÖm not 100 percent sure. I know there must be articles on this subject, however I donGÇÖt have any to hand. I recall reading about this small controversy, probably in various books, and I seem to remember that Justin is summarily dismissed as being mistaken, something quite common where Justin is concerned when his writings donGÇÖt agree with other sources. Darn it, I wish I could remember where IGÇÖve read these arguments. Sorry.

Best regards,

[marcus]

I checked HeckelGÇÖs WhoGÇÖs Who in the Age of Alexander the Great; he calls Caranus a Non-existent son of Phillip II and says Since CleopatraGÇÖs child turned out to be a daughter, Europa, and there was no time for a second child to be born before CleopatraGÇÖs murder in 336, Caranus must be dismissed as an invention. The only source is Justin, as I suspected.

Justin 9.7.3 As for Alexander, it is said that he feared his brother by his step-mother as a rival for the throne; and hence it happened that he had previously quarrelled at a banquet, first with Attalus, and afterwards with his father himself, insomuch that Philip pursued him even with his drawn sword, and was hardly prevented from killing him by the entreaties of his friends.

Justin 11.2.1-3 His first care was about his fatherGÇÖs funeral, when he caused all who had been privy to his murder to be put to death at his burial-place. The only one that he spared was Alexander Lyncestes his brother, preserving in him the man who had first acknowledged his royal authority, for he had been the first to salute him king. His brother Caranus, a rival for the throne, as being the son of his step-mother, he ordered to be slain.

In contrast, there's an excerpt of Justin that tells of the daughter by Cleopatra:

Justin 9.7.8 Next she forced Cleopatra, for whose sake she had been divorced from Philip, to hang herself, having first killed her daughter in her lap, and enjoyed the sight of her suffering this vengeance, to which she had hastened by procuring the death of her husband.

Pausanias also says Cleopatra had a son. This reference isnGÇÖt to be found in HeckelGÇÖs book, probably because the child isnGÇÖt mentioned by name.

Nice one. I was fairly sure that the son was only mentioned in Justin, but I didn't have time to look it up. I'm surprised that Heckel doesn't include the Pausanias ref, even though the name isn't mentioned - it would still refer to Caranus, real or no.

I don't have time to check around, because I need to prepare a double lesson on Vietnam for tomorrow (eek!), but I reckon I wouldn't be far wrong in suggesting that those who have claimed in the past that there was a son were those who wanted to give Alexander a 'legitimate' reason to be involved in the child's death - as there would be no need from his point of view to murder a baby girl. It all comes to naught if one believes he didn't have anything to do with the murder, of course.

ATB

[dean]

I checked HeckelGÇÖs WhoGÇÖs Who in the Age of Alexander the Great; he calls Caranus a Non-existent son of Phillip II and says Since CleopatraGÇÖs child turned out to be a daughter, Europa, and there was no time for a second child to be born before CleopatraGÇÖs murder in 336, Caranus must be dismissed as an invention.

Just after checking the dates of Philip's marriage to Cleopatra and his assassination I see that there are 2 years. Now in theory, 2 years is more than enough time to have two children to my mind- (and if Cleopatra was pregnant at the time of the wedding, more so- ) I wonder how far we are to believe in the behaviour of Olympias- and her cruelty towards Cleopatra and her "children?" Could she have been that bad?
Found it interesting to see that Caranus was thus named in honor ofof the founder of the royal Macedonian dynasty.
Best wishes,
Dean

[Coral]

Slightly off-topic, according to Elizabeth Carney's book (and from Justin), Philip II killed his half-brothers, the three sons of step-mother Gygaea, Archelaus, Arrhideus and Menelaus. So, the sons of Philip's father, killed each other. I wonder, did Philip, who loved marriage as a useful political tool, ever wonder whether his sons would immediately kill each other on his death?