An illegitimate son?

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amyntoros
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Re: Did Kassander Kill Heracles

Post by amyntoros »

Hi Bob

Here are two source excerpts on the death of Herakles. There's also a third one in Diodorus Book 20, I believe, but I don't have it on file. By the way, you asked about the rebuilding of Thebes in another thread - Marcus was right, it was begun by Cassander. I've included the reference from Pausanias here as it occurs right before the death of Herakles.

Justin 15.2.3 Afterwards, lest Hercules, the son of Alexander, who had nearly completed his fourteenth year, should be called to the throne of Macedonia through the influence of his father's name, he sent secret orders that he should be put to death, together with his mother Barsine, and that their bodies should be privately buried in the earth lest the murder should be betrayed by a regular funeral. As if, too, he had previously incurred but small guilt, first in the case of the king himself, and afterwards in that of his mother Olympias and her son, he cut off his other son, and his mother Roxane, with similar treachery; as though he could not obtain the throne of Macedonia, to which he aspired, otherwise than by crime.

Pausanias 9.7.1-2 On this occasion the Thebans were removed from their homes by Alexander, and straggled to Athens; afterwards they were restored by Cassander, son of Antipater. Heartiest in their support of the restoration of Thebes were the Athenians, and they were helped by Messenians and the Arcadians of Megalopolis. [2] My own view is that in building Thebes Cassander was mainly influenced by hatred of Alexander. He destroyed the whole house of Alexander to the bitter end. Olympias he threw to the exasperated Macedonians to be stoned to death; and the sons of Alexander, Heracles by Barsine and Alexander by Roxana, he killed by poison. But he himself was not to come to a good end. He was filled with dropsy, and from the dropsy came worms while he was yet alive.

Best regards,
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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Hi Ruth,
If he had 'married' Barsine then why would they consider her son illegitimate?
Well, that was the point I was trying to make - the difference between what the Persians considered a legitimate marriage and what the Macedonians saw as one. As there's no reference in the Greek/Latin sources to Alexander marrying Barsine (except for Alexander rejecting Parmenio's advice on the same) then the relationship was never perceived by the Macedonians as a marriage. And it was the *Macedonians* who decided on the heir after Alexander's death. In my previous post I was trying to figure out why Brosius would say Alexander did, indeed, marry Barsine. That involves looking at it from a Persian point of view. The same reasoning applies when examing Greek attitudes to marriage. They didn't recognize polygamy which is why some sources read as if Philip repudiated each previous wife before marrying another. He didn't.

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Last edited by amyntoros on Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Heracles death, and disintegration of the empire...

Post by bob »

Thanks to the both of you for those replies. Very helpful. Man, Kassander is one of my least favorite characters, I personally do not have much respect for him. It is no wonder why Macedonia did not last as an empire, and it disintegrated into all sorts of wars after Alexander's death. None of the sucessors came even close to Alexander's greatness, learning about the history of Post Alexander times is really sad, and shocking how poor that history really is. Philip and Alexander both certainly towered over all the sucessors.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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I believe much of the confusion among modern scholars comes from the alternate identification of Statiera as 'Barsine'. I don't know when it started, but during the course of writing 'Memnon' I came across several references to 'Barsine/Statiera' (Darius' daughter) and 'Barsine' (Memnon's widow). Drove me batty until I was able to differentiate the two in my mind.My own theory, albeit influenced by the needs of fiction, is that Alexander put Barsine aside (in a proper fashion) because he didn't like the idea of being second to Memnon in her affection. Whimsy? Most likely, but it does make some sense when Alexander's personality is taken into account.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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Obviously you have the requirements of your novel to attend to; but I don't think there's ever been any suggestion that Barsine was 'put aside'. If her son was indeed born in around 327, it would make perfect sense that Alexander should send her, and the baby, out of Bactria and off to the 'pacified' West, for their own sakes. One could, of course, question why he didn't have them brought from Pergamum once he had returned from India; but there might have been many reasons - climate; perhaps Heracles was weak and benefited from the sea air and more temperate climate of Pergamum; he was too busy planning the next campaign; Hephaestion's death; his other marriages; he already knew that Roxane was the jealous type, and feared what would happen if Heracles came within her reach (and he already knew what Olympias had at least threatened, if not actually did, to his 'rival' brothers/sisters); etc. etc. Hmm, I think I need to look into this whole Heracles business more - I'd always just accepted what happened and not really paid attention ...ATBMarcus
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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I don't think Barsine would have been in any appreciable danger in Bactria, though, since from 329 it was her father's satrapy. I can see Alexander not taking her along into India if she were already pregnant; who better to care for her than her father? But, according to one reckoning Artabazus died shortly after relinquishing his satrapy in 327, which could account for her removal to the West, where she would be amongst friends she'd known since returning from exile in 343 BC.Does anyone know of any studies on Artabazus' family? I tried to find everything I could while researching Memnon, but I'm sure there are things I missed.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

Post by amyntoros »

Hi Scott,

I can appreciate that some people might be confused by the two Barsines, but Brosius makes the distinction clear. The full sentence reads:"Barsine, a daughter of Artabazos, and who had been the wife of Memnon (Plut. Alex. 21.8 ) also was married to Alexander."

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Re: An illegitimate son?

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G'day all.Marriages, marriages and more marriages!Just a couple of quickies on this. The policy of the marriages in Susa of the Macedonian "officer corps" was pure politics. And, like many things purely political, were discarded after Alexander's death as purely unnecessary. As Jim pointed out, this was a way fusing the "noble classes" of both continents into one. It achieved precisely nothing.From my readings, there appeared always to be a Persian "queen" amongst the harem. Perhaps a better term being "chief wife" or that one whose children were those "directly" in line for the throne. Persian history is replete with the disappearance of royal family members inconveniently placed more directly in line than an eventual successor to the throne (Darius I for example). As far the Persian aristocracy was concerned, Alexander could take half the "noble" female population of Persepolis should he have wanted to.
As far as the Macedonian aristocracy was concerned, whilst not ever being able to be described as "Roman Catholic" in their nuptial notions, they were quite touchy about the marriage that would bring about a "legitimate" heir. Mostly that legitimacy devolved around their participation in that heir's conception. Hence Attalus' rather intemperate remarks to Alexander. No real Macedonian Baron would have - as an heir - offspring begotten from an Arcadian, Byzantine or Thracian let alone a Bactrian.It is surprising how long Alexander IV lasted before the absolute fiction was ended by that callous climber Cassander. Heracles, like Arrhidaeus and Alexander IV, was simply the latest of a line of utilitarian princely pawns to support the power plays of those proclaiming themselves "regent" or "guardian of the kings".Paralus
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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As far the Persian aristocracy was concerned, Alexander could take half the "noble" female population of Persepolis should he have wanted to.
Yes, but that is according to Macedonian attitudes. To all appearances Alexander would never have taken a captive woman for sex just because he was entitled to a formalized relationship with Barsine (a form of Persian marriage) fits in well with everything that we know about him. I think we have to look outside the box here and consider not just the Macedonians but the Persians, and also Alexander's non-traditional attitude to both conquered peoples and to women. Because of their long contact with the Greek world Barsine's powerful and influential family surely knew that the role of Greek mistress was most commonly that of a prostitute they would hardly have been happy for Barsine to fulfill such a role. And Alexander is never reported to have taken a woman by right of conquest which - for the record - is essentially rape.

After first being stunned by Brosius statement, I am considering that she may be right. If Barsine was viewed by her family and the rest of the Persian nobility as a legitimate wife of the king (according to the Persian tradition) then they would certainly have been happy . . . Alexander's view of himself would have been reinforced. . . and the Macedonian army would have had no concerns as they didn't have a clue what was really going on! As long as it wasn't a marriage in the Macedonian tradition they wouldn't have recognized it. . .
No real Macedonian Baron would have GÇô as an heir GÇô offspring begotten from an Arcadian, Byzantine or Thracian let alone a Bactrian.
All too true, Paralus, and Alexander surely knew this. However, I think he considered the future and the administration of his empire in far more detail than we suspect. (The only thing he didn't anticipate was Hephaistion's death and his own!) I don't think he ever intended a single son to rule his entire empire, that accomplishment being reserved only for him. Consider his seeming intentions before the death of Hephaistion - Craterus was to be regent of Macedonia and surely Hephaistion, as Chilliarch, was to be regent in Persia. The concerns of the Macedonian army would no longer to be paramount in Persia. Alexander had already trained 30,000 young Persian soldiers in the Macedonian fashion and he intended to raise the half-Persian offspring of the army *in* Persia.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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. . . Continued

Any Macedonian soldiers no longer useful to Alexander were sent home, and the rest were to follow with Alexander on his further conquests. With Macedonians left mainly in administrative positions and some garrisons, it is who the *Persians* would have accepted as a future king that is important - and a son of Stateira would have been perfect - supported, btw, by the NEW Persian nobility, the intended offspring of Hephaistion and all the Macedonians who were married in Susa!

Perhaps Alexander also intended a son of Roxane for the satrapy in Bactria, with a son of Barsine to administrate some other region such as Egypt? In the meantime, as Alexander continued westwards, surely he would have taken a Macedonian bride and finally given them what they wanted - a completely Macedonian son to rule in Macedonia!

All conjecture, I know - or more like alternate history! - but IMO there is plenty of evidence that Alexander thought ahead. For example, I don't believe the mass marriages in Susa were conceived on a whim. All the captured Persian noble-women were known to Alexander before he even ventured eastwards, and he may even have decided on the marriages before the actual death of Darius. (I doubt he knew exactly how long his eastward trek would eventually take!) If only he'd lived to see his offspring reach adulthood, the world might have been a very different place. One can argue that the Successors would still have acted in the same manner, but apart from being much older, they would no longer have been in Asia and have both the Macedonian and Persian armies at their disposal. And once they had left Asia and had all of Europe at their feet . . . who knows what would have happened?

Okay, enough babbling for today. :-)

Best regards,
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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It might be alternate history but it makes exceptional sense -- Alexander was no longer thinking on a solely Macedonian-centered level, but what was best for his empire as a whole. I wonder, too, if that might be the reason Barsine was sent back West, back to land where her family would have carried some weight? It would have kept his queens from killing each other (a lesson surely learned from watching his mother) and integrated them into the region their sons would someday rule . . .Ah, if only he'd kept better notes :)
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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Hi Scott,Sorry, I should have been more explicit - I meant that it would be too dangerous to take her and the baby on into India.Although, certainly judging from later events, it probably wouldn't have been wise to leave her in Bactria.ATBMarcus
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Re: An illegitimate son?

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G'day Amyntoros.I'm quite certain the marriages of the Macedonian and Asian political classes (or nobility) were aimed squarely at foisting a more lasting control over the empire. Alexander had endured quite enough of fractious locals harbouring ideas of independence. The policy can only really seen in the terms you describe: a heterogeneous nobility. I feel that many of these sham marriages will have been repudiated (by either side) - on whatever grounds - once Alexander was off on his next Indian type excursus and doubt that it would ever really succeed.That this policy may have produced a local dynast acceptable - on a local level - to the Asians is open to conjecture. I don't believe that a marriage between Alexander and Rhoxane or Statiera was aimed at anything more than the immediate political situation. Rhoxane, in the first instance, to pacify the fractious Bactrian/Sogdiana area by dynastic marriage and Staiera purely for Achaemenid legitimacy among the Persian nobility. There would only ever be one ruler and unfortunately fever took him in Babylon.Alexander may well have eventually sired a "legitimate" Macedonian heir. May - but I doubt it was as important to him as to other Macedonians. In fact, I think Macedonia and Greece were fast beginning to resemble a small country town that pales into insignificance compared to New York City. Their concerns and problems an increasingly parochial irritation.The comment about Alexander taking half the female nobility of Persepolis was loose - a throwaway line. Not a suggestion that it ever did happen or, that Alexander contemplated it. Simply an exercise in showing that the Persians will have found no incongruity in Alexander taking ten or twenty wives of noble blood.Paralus.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

Post by dean »

Hi Linda, I totally agree, I think that Alexander was looking to take on all things Persian- that he was the successor to the Achaemenid throne- and thus should marry Stateira, so she would be the Queen- I don't imagine either that this would have impressed Barsine(the mistress)- or her family- their way would imply that both she and Roxanne were of lesser importance- and that Stateira-¦s sons would be the rightful heir to the throne.One thing I think interesting about Barsine, is that she "married" ,if we count her relationship with Alexander as a kind of marriage, no less than 3 times- a real life, ancient Liz Taylor no less. Kind of goes against the grain of what you would imagine a Persian woman doing in those times, and indeed these times,
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Dean.
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Re: An illegitimate son?

Post by xxx »

Very good discussion on Barsine. A few points - Barsine was married to Greeks - when her first husband died, his brother married her - very typical, not a Liz Taylor thing at all. Note as well Cassander's marrying of a half-sister of Alexander in order to assert his legal authority over Alexander IV as his 'Uncle.'Now for the reasons Barsine would not have been married to Alexander. As was pointed out because she had offspring and was married twice before. Had Alexander married her, her offspring become his legitimate offspring. Alexander 'planned' heirs like he planned his battles. Alexander was not 'Persian' in his viewpoints, but he was well aware of the importance of the female line in Persian culture. Barsine was not high enough in the pecking order to be his wife. His siring of a child by Barsine would be expected, particularly in relation to when it likely occured. A form of apologia for marrying Roxane. After all, one can imagine he could hardly explain why he married Roxane to Barsine, who most certainly was higher up in the pecking order than Roxane. But Roxane was not planned in the greater scheme of things, she was a necessary 'tactic' to get on with his travels. Which is why Roxane's pregnancy is not surprising - apologia for marrying Statiera who I agree, was going to have the heir most likely to succeed Alexander. Which is why of course, Statiera and her family would have to be eliminated immediately. They were the true danger to the general's control of things. While it is not mentioned in the histories, I think it quite likely given Alexander's behavior and timing, that Statiera was pregnant at the time of her death. And a very good reason why it was not mentioned in the histories. Doesn't reflect well on the generals killing Alexander's unborn child. Roxane was not so highly placed and would not have had Persian support as the legitimate heir like an issue of Statiera would. Or Parysatis for that matter. Roxane could be allowed to live and since she was with the King at his death eliminating her might have caused a rebellion of sorts as she was carrying Alexander's child and the army was very fond of their recently dead king. However note how she gets the blame for eliminating Statiera. She couldn't move a muscle without the blessing of Perdiccas and others, so take that she was responsible with a big grain of salt. Things change quick however.
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