Actually i said in another post that i am one of the few greeks righting here,but not the only one
As far as i can see ,Athanasios Mandis is greek,and Nick Chistakes also,but probably living abroad judging by his first name,and Ruthaki maybe?And some other that i ant recall now. Anyway,i try to be as objective as i can be.I will make a research about this matter tomorrow,as i think its one of the most important aspects of Alexander.Plutarch spends many pages praising him for spreading hellenism around Asia.I will try to find quotes from other sources that indicate that,and in which ways. Η ΙΣΧΥΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΕΝΩΣΗ
"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1941.
Actually i said in another post that i am one of the few greeks righting here,but not the only one
As far as i can see ,Athanasios Mandis is greek,and Nick Chistakes also,but probably living abroad judging by his first name,and Ruthaki maybe?And some other that i ant recall now. Anyway,i try to be as objective as i can be.I will make a research about this matter tomorrow,as i think its one of the most important aspects of Alexander.Plutarch spends many pages praising him for spreading hellenism around Asia.I will try to find quotes from other sources that indicate that,and in which ways. Η ΙΣΧΥΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΕΝΩΣΗ
"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1941.
Efstathios, I'm just a Greek in my soul. I consider Greece my second home. I love the country, the people, the history and have for many years.This was an interesting discussion. As always, there's much to be learned on pothos.org thanks.
evharisto poli.
Efstathios, I'm just a Greek in my soul. I consider Greece my second home. I love the country, the people, the history and have for many years.This was an interesting discussion. As always, there's much to be learned on pothos.org thanks.
evharisto poli.
Efstathios,Yes, my ethnic origin is Greek and despite being born and bred in London, UK, I do consider myself Greek with a vantage point in being that an 'outsider'. In other words, not fitting entirely in Greek or English culture* allows one to view culture with more clarity.I see this as a critical point in ATG too as having parents of mixed background (how different you want to consider Epirus and Macedonia needs to be considered that ATG's father thought it enough for differences to be created between the union he had with Olympias). It was this, perhaps, that allowed him to be more tolerant than, say, Aristotle and many other Greeks of his time towards the barbaroi.Whereas ATG may have started out with a clear, Hellenistic goal, I am sure that he would have been [positively] influenced with the wealth of art, literature, architecture that he would have seen on his travails. The sense of the Hellenes being a superior race would have evaporated. I have crticised Stone's movie, but the one scene that does stand out is the sight of Babylon, the first, true cosmopolitan city...I am in agreement with Efstathios on the point that Alexander cared about his legacy. I think that there is enough evidence in his actions and deeds to suggest this. He aspired to immortality and many quests he embarked on were to equal Heracles and Dionysos. Sure he cared...Regards,
Atha* For those who are interested, I cannot say I am English as this is not my ethicity, but feel comfortable saying I am British as this not only reflects my [joint] citizenship, but also the fabric of these isles, which are indeed cosmopolitan. There are many second and third generations that are in a similar position, not just Greeks, but Turks, Afro-Caribbean, etc. It is this that has allowed BRITISH culture to be tolerant.
Efstathios,Yes, my ethnic origin is Greek and despite being born and bred in London, UK, I do consider myself Greek with a vantage point in being that an 'outsider'. In other words, not fitting entirely in Greek or English culture* allows one to view culture with more clarity.I see this as a critical point in ATG too as having parents of mixed background (how different you want to consider Epirus and Macedonia needs to be considered that ATG's father thought it enough for differences to be created between the union he had with Olympias). It was this, perhaps, that allowed him to be more tolerant than, say, Aristotle and many other Greeks of his time towards the barbaroi.Whereas ATG may have started out with a clear, Hellenistic goal, I am sure that he would have been [positively] influenced with the wealth of art, literature, architecture that he would have seen on his travails. The sense of the Hellenes being a superior race would have evaporated. I have crticised Stone's movie, but the one scene that does stand out is the sight of Babylon, the first, true cosmopolitan city...I am in agreement with Efstathios on the point that Alexander cared about his legacy. I think that there is enough evidence in his actions and deeds to suggest this. He aspired to immortality and many quests he embarked on were to equal Heracles and Dionysos. Sure he cared...Regards,
Atha* For those who are interested, I cannot say I am English as this is not my ethicity, but feel comfortable saying I am British as this not only reflects my [joint] citizenship, but also the fabric of these isles, which are indeed cosmopolitan. There are many second and third generations that are in a similar position, not just Greeks, but Turks, Afro-Caribbean, etc. It is this that has allowed BRITISH culture to be tolerant.
I have read that while Philip was his natural father that Aristotle was like an academic father to him, that their relationship was that close. They maintained it throughout the course of his life until it seems to have soured at the end. Yet, Aristotle sided more with Alexander in the problem with his nephew Callisthenes.
I have read that while Philip was his natural father that Aristotle was like an academic father to him, that their relationship was that close. They maintained it throughout the course of his life until it seems to have soured at the end. Yet, Aristotle sided more with Alexander in the problem with his nephew Callisthenes.
GÇ£Yet, Aristotle sided more with Alexander in the problem with his nephew Callisthenes.GÇ¥IGÇÖd love to see the evidence that suggests Aristotle colluded in the murder of his nephew Jan?And, correction noted Efstathios GÇô re the Hellenic poster thing. As I said, I wasn't certain, just going from memory.You and I may continue to argue (in the proper sense) AlexanderGÇÖs motives GÇô indeed we most likely will as IGÇÖm self evidently of the Bosworth/Badian school of thinking. I find little room in my reading of Alexander history for the Hellenic GÇ£cultural ambassador-at largeGÇ¥ and harbinger of the GÇ£Brotherhood of ManGÇ¥ rubbish that Tarn espoused. This entire thinking belongs to another age.Alexander the Greek conqueror of the East? Ask the Athenians and those other Greeks who rose in immediate rebellion when GÇô as Demades described it GÇô the stench of the (Alexander) corpse suffocated the Mediterranean.>Macedonian rule GÇô imposed by main force GÇô was, in its entirety, resented by the GÇ£GreeksGÇ¥. And for as long as it obtained.
Paralus
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
GÇ£Yet, Aristotle sided more with Alexander in the problem with his nephew Callisthenes.GÇ¥IGÇÖd love to see the evidence that suggests Aristotle colluded in the murder of his nephew Jan?And, correction noted Efstathios GÇô re the Hellenic poster thing. As I said, I wasn't certain, just going from memory.You and I may continue to argue (in the proper sense) AlexanderGÇÖs motives GÇô indeed we most likely will as IGÇÖm self evidently of the Bosworth/Badian school of thinking. I find little room in my reading of Alexander history for the Hellenic GÇ£cultural ambassador-at largeGÇ¥ and harbinger of the GÇ£Brotherhood of ManGÇ¥ rubbish that Tarn espoused. This entire thinking belongs to another age.Alexander the Greek conqueror of the East? Ask the Athenians and those other Greeks who rose in immediate rebellion when GÇô as Demades described it GÇô the stench of the (Alexander) corpse suffocated the Mediterranean.>Macedonian rule GÇô imposed by main force GÇô was, in its entirety, resented by the GÇ£GreeksGÇ¥. And for as long as it obtained.
Paralus
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Michael is right, Jan - I fear you might have misread something. We know nothing of Aristotle's having any part in Alexander's getting rid of Callisthenes. There is a mention in Plutarch, that Aristotle is supposed to have said that Callisthenes showed great ability as a speaker, but lacked common sense. It was *said* (again in Plutarch) that Alexander originally intended to send Callisthenes to be tried in Greece, with Aristotle as a witness ... but that wouldn't mean that Aristotle colluded in Callisthenes' downfall at all; and Plutarch also suggests that Alexander threatened Aristotle's own life, as being the person who recommended Callisthenes to him in the first place.None of these is proven to be true, of course; but also none of them gives any indication that Aristotle (a) knew what was happening in Bactria, or (b) colluded with Alexander in getting rid of Callisthenes.All the bestMarcus
Michael is right, Jan - I fear you might have misread something. We know nothing of Aristotle's having any part in Alexander's getting rid of Callisthenes. There is a mention in Plutarch, that Aristotle is supposed to have said that Callisthenes showed great ability as a speaker, but lacked common sense. It was *said* (again in Plutarch) that Alexander originally intended to send Callisthenes to be tried in Greece, with Aristotle as a witness ... but that wouldn't mean that Aristotle colluded in Callisthenes' downfall at all; and Plutarch also suggests that Alexander threatened Aristotle's own life, as being the person who recommended Callisthenes to him in the first place.None of these is proven to be true, of course; but also none of them gives any indication that Aristotle (a) knew what was happening in Bactria, or (b) colluded with Alexander in getting rid of Callisthenes.All the bestMarcus
As I recall, Alexander set a trap for Callisthenes, knowing how good he was as an oral speaker. First, he asked Callisthenes to describe all the good or great things about the Macedonians, which he did well, and then he baited him to then describe all the bad things about the Macedonians which is what turned the Macedonians against him. Aristotle had nothing to do with that, but is said to have questioned Callisthenes's judgement for his responses, and thought that he should not have criticized Alexander so much. Alexander knew what he was doing when he proved to the Macedonians the true nature of Callisthenes's feelings about them.
As I recall, Alexander set a trap for Callisthenes, knowing how good he was as an oral speaker. First, he asked Callisthenes to describe all the good or great things about the Macedonians, which he did well, and then he baited him to then describe all the bad things about the Macedonians which is what turned the Macedonians against him. Aristotle had nothing to do with that, but is said to have questioned Callisthenes's judgement for his responses, and thought that he should not have criticized Alexander so much. Alexander knew what he was doing when he proved to the Macedonians the true nature of Callisthenes's feelings about them.
Yes, but ...1. We don't know how much Alexander was "setting a trap" for Callisthenes - although it was a convenient way of alienating Callisthenes from the Macedonians, so that when the time came he didn't have the support he would have needed to save him. But we simply don't know how premeditated this was.2. Aristotle's comment about Callisthenes was not, so far as any evidence exists, said post-execution, nor specifically in relation to that rhetorical exercise. It is unclear in Plutarch when Aristotle is supposed to have said this.So what you say is one, perfectly reasonable interpretation of the events; but I would say that there is nothing to suggest that Aristotle (a) knew that Alexander was planning to get rid of Callisthenes, or (b) had anything to do with it - not least because the speed of communications would have meant that Alexander must have been considering those actions *well* before they happened.All the bestMarcus
