different Arrian translations and editions.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by marcus »

Paralus wrote:Without doubt. I wonder at the persistence though. Arrian uses psiloi, or its variants, 91 times throughout the Anabasis and he uses it to describe the "light" infantry of Alexander's forces. For example:
4.4.6: But Alexander mixed the archers, the Agrianians, and other light troops [psilois] under- the command of Balacrus...

4.29.1: Ptolemy, son of Lagus, the confidential bodyguard, in command of the Agrianians and the other light-armed troops [psilous]...

1.13.1: Hegelochus at the head of the cavalry, who were armed with the long pike, and about 500 of the light-armed troops[psilon]...
You get the idea and so there's no need to go through the other 88 notices!
I think you'd better - I'm still not entirely sure ... :D

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Thanks guys, I'm going to be honest and say I did not know Loeb had the greek translations, but I do remember years ago seeing an Arrian with greek on one page and the translation on the other. And I've been looking for it since. So that's great, ill grab that up first.
And it just happens to be payday. : )
Thanks again,
Spitamenes
There is another thing to consider when deciding between the Loeb and the Landmark (or any other edition, for that matter). The Loeb edition also contains the Indica, which the others don't.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by amyntoros »

Paralus wrote:
If the Greek is not necessary then I'd likely plump for the Landmark Arrian that Amyntoros has linked. The translation might well be more "current" (though there is not necessarily anything bad in Brunt's - though he revises Robson's) and I would be very interested to see if modern scholarship has seen past mistranslations corrected - Koinos' brigade of asthetairoi at Tyre and the persistent error of "lightest / lighter armed" for kouphos (nimble / mobile / agile).

Just on which, what has Mensch rendered for 3.18.5 Amyntoros? (he took the shield-bearing guards, the brigade of Perdiccas, the lightest armed of the archers, the Agrianians, the royal squadron of the Companions…)

I’d also be interested in her rendering of 3.17.2 (He then took the royal body-guards, the shield-bearing infantry, and 8,ooo men from the rest of his army…).
3.18.5 "... Alexander set out at night and, after covering about twelve miles, went on ahead with the shield-bearers, Perdikkas' battalian, the nimblest of the archers, the Agrianians, the royal squadron of the Companion cavalry, and one additional cavalry tetrarchy ...."

3.17.2 "Taking the royal bodygards, the shield-bearers, and nearly eight thousand other troops ..."
Paralus wrote:I note that in the spare pages available to “look inside”, Mensch has rendered 1.1.11 as “He himself collected the agema, the shield bearers…” Nice to see the agema being rendered as such. I’d love to read “Appendix D” though to see her rationale for the note that the agema of the hypaspists were “a special division of light armed infantry” and that the hypaspists were “specially equipped infantry […] lighter and more mobile than the heavy infantry that made up the phalanx”. The hypaspists – in every set piece – make up the phalanx as do their agema. The tired argument that they are “lighter armed soldiers” due to the fact that Alexander takes on missions outside phalanx work ignores the plain fact that so were many other divisions of the phalanx. Whatever we decide of the hypaspists who take the wall of Tyre (certainly not with a sarisa) must just as clearly apply to Koinos’ brigade of asthetairoi – “heavy infantry” who also clearly make up the phalanx. Not to mention the many detachments of phalanx brigades doing similar work to the hypaspists as the anabasis wears on.
Not sure of the exact reference, but there's this in Appendix D, #3: " It may also have been Philip who created a new corps of infantry soldier, the hypaspists, or shield-bearers, to help cover the phalanx flank and keep a connection between it and the faster-moving cavalry. Unfortunately our evidence as to how these shield-bearers were armed is very scant, but it seems likely that they were more lightly outfitted than the phalangites, given their great need for mobility. Certainly they were an elite corps chosen for their speed, strength, and stamina, for under Alexander various segments of the three-thousand man corps were almost always the first selected for fast-moving pursuits or taxing physical challenges. They were also elite in terms of their loyalty to the king, since a subdivsion of them, the thousand-man, agema ("royal squadron"). formed his personal bodyguard and security brigade. (Under Alexander there was also a cavalry agema, made up of elite horsemen; one unit or the other would accompany the king into battle, depending on whether he was fighting on foot or on horseback."

Appendix D, by the way, is written by James Romm, not Mensch. A is by Elizabeth Baynham, B by Borza, C is Stoneman, D and E are Romm, F is Holt, G Stoneman again, H is Borza, I is Holt, J is Stoneman, K is Romm, L is Stoneman, M and N are Romm, O is Borza, P is Bosworth, Q is Borza, and R is Romm again.
Paralus wrote:Appears I must order the book....
Don't think you'll be disapointed. Even my rabbit loves it - he ate half the book cover! :lol:

Best regards,
Amyntoros

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

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amyntoros wrote:
Paralus wrote:Appears I must order the book....
Don't think you'll be disapointed. Even my rabbit loves it - he ate half the book cover! :lol:
Well, one cannot ask for a better endorsement than that! :D

Does Amazon accept book reviews from rabbits?

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by Paralus »

marcus wrote:
Paralus wrote:
You get the idea and so there's no need to go through the other 88 notices!
I think you'd better - I'm still not entirely sure ... :D

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1.7.8: But so far were they (the Thebans] from showing any sign of wishing to come to an accommodation, that their cavalry and a large body of light-armed infantry (psilon) sallying forth from the city...

1.7.9: Alexander hereupon sent forth a party of his light-armed infantry 9psilon)and archers to repel their sortie...

3.9.5: But Alexander took the light infantry (psilous)and the cavalry Companions...

4.30.6: [Alexander] sent out Nearchus and Antiochus, the chiliarchs of the shield-bearing guards, giving the former the command of the Agrianians and the light-armed troops (psilous)...

6.6.6: The light armed troops (psiloi)followed him as quickly as they could on foot...

6.18.3: He gave Leonnatus the command of 1,000 cavalry and 8,000 heavy and light-armed infantry (hopliton te kai psilon)...

6.18.5: He then sent the quickest of the light-armed troops into the land beyond the river’s bank and captured some Indians (ton psilon tous kouphotatous ...)
It's been raining all week and continues to do so, now, on Saturday: I'd nothing better to do!

Interesting that last pair: the contrast between heavy infantry and light infantry is clear. I note there is no silliness such as the "lightest" of the light infantry. Thus those like Markle, who rely upon kouphos to buttress the argument that hypaspists being included amongst the "more kouphos" troops means they are lighter armed troops, need to find another argument.

Time to get the washing on an A-frame and start the ironing. The joys of rainy weekends, children and school uniforms...
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by spitamenes »

Well I went against direct orders and bought the new(ish) landmark Arrian yesterday. $40 hardcover. Was trying to wait for a $20 softy but I just couldn't wait any longer. Paul cartledge did very well with the introduction. Seems like a breath of fresh air reading this one.

Paralus,
Earlier in this thread you were wondering about how certain words and phrases were depicted in this translation. If you can think of any more you want checked just let me know.
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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Well I went against direct orders and bought the new(ish) landmark Arrian yesterday. $40 hardcover. Was trying to wait for a $20 softy but I just couldn't wait any longer. Paul cartledge did very well with the introduction. Seems like a breath of fresh air reading this one.
Great news! Fortunately I only have to answer to myself when it comes to buying books such as this. Unfortunately, I am a tyrant when it comes to giving myself permission to do so, and I haven't managed to convince myself, yet. Perhaps I will be able to do so before the end of the summer ...

I'll be interested to hear what the other articles are like. They certainly looked interesting when I was glancing at the contents page on Amazon.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by spitamenes »

I believe it will be in softback by january if I remember correctly. My penguin Arrian is annihilated by highlighters and sidenotes so instead of replacing, I figured I would go with a fresh translation. And the Misses is ok with me getting new books. Lord knows there's worse things we could spend money on. She just kinda gave me the "another Alexander book?" Look that is all too familiar. At least I didn't have to slip the new book into an older cover sleeve in order to read it freely around the house. Although thats not a bad idea. Ill remember that for next time. :)
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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by Paralus »

spitamenes wrote:Paralus,
Earlier in this thread you were wondering about how certain words and phrases were depicted in this translation. If you can think of any more you want checked just let me know.
A most kind offer. I actually picked it up myself: delivered by Amazon early this week along with the Landmark Xenophon's Hellenica, Harding's Translated Documents II (Peloponnesian War to Ipsos) and Roisman (Ed) A Companion to Ancient Macedonia.

Kid in a chocolate shop time and and - literally - reading all at once.

The Arrian seems a much better translation thought the repetitive "light armed" hypaspsists annoys considerably. A bit like NGL Hammond at his most "extreme" (for want of a better word): I say therefore it was.

Next the Landmark Thucydides.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by marcus »

Paralus wrote:
spitamenes wrote:Paralus,
Earlier in this thread you were wondering about how certain words and phrases were depicted in this translation. If you can think of any more you want checked just let me know.
A most kind offer. I actually picked it up myself: delivered by Amazon early this week along with the Landmark Xenophon's Hellenica, Harding's Translated Documents II (Peloponnesian War to Ipsos) and Roisman (Ed) A Companion to Ancient Macedonia.

Kid in a chocolate shop time and and - literally - reading all at once.

The Arrian seems a much better translation thought the repetitive "light armed" hypaspsists annoys considerably. A bit like NGL Hammond at his most "extreme" (for want of a better word): I say therefore it was.

Next the Landmark Thucydides.
Good for you, sir. Although if you got the Roisman book then you must be much wealthier than I am! :D Do give us a report on it - I've had my eye on it for ages, and am itching to spend the money I haven't got on it ...

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

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marcus wrote: Do give us a report on it - I've had my eye on it for ages, and am itching to spend the money I haven't got on it ...
Couldn't resist given the current value of the AUD against the Atlanto-Pacific Peso (USD).

Review might take a while: this is about the size of Green's From Alexander to Actium. Carrying it around the house for the next month or two will be most beneficial exercise; no need of a gym.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

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Well I've barely scratched the surface of the landmark Arrian and I already have a small question. Penguin classics refers to the peoples Alexander encountered at mt. Haemus as "a large force of natives under arms and the free Thracians." According to Pamela in the Landmark "he was met by many armed […] ". And it states that a name of the tribe of people has.. an I quote.. "fallen out" of the manuscripts. So how does a name "fall out" of a manuscript? Is it just not recognizable? Like I said... small question. And if I had the loeb then maybe I could track it down myself.
But I am very pleased with the Landmark so far. Maps and all the extra explanations are great!
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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Well I've barely scratched the surface of the landmark Arrian and I already have a small question. Penguin classics refers to the peoples Alexander encountered at mt. Haemus as "a large force of natives under arms and the free Thracians." According to Pamela in the Landmark "he was met by many armed […] ". And it states that a name of the tribe of people has.. an I quote.. "fallen out" of the manuscripts. So how does a name "fall out" of a manuscript? Is it just not recognizable? Like I said... small question. And if I had the loeb then maybe I could track it down myself.
But I am very pleased with the Landmark so far. Maps and all the extra explanations are great!
Lacunae can occur for many different reasons. It might just be because the original manuscript is damaged; or if it is a palimpsest, then some words can remain unreadable. Anyway, for what it's worth, this is what the Loeb edition says:
Loeb wrote:[6] where he was met in the defile of the approach to the mountains by many of the [local barbarians?] in arms and by the independent Thracians; prepared to bar his advance, they had occupied the height of Haemus on the line of the army’s march.
So basically we don't know whether it was the name of the tribe, although it probably was; so the translators have to make educated guesses as to what the lacuna might have said.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by Paralus »

Marcus is dead right.

I would only add that that the "versions" of the ancient works that we have are the result of many copiers' work. There are sometimes more than the one "transcription" or "codex" (as with Diodorus for example). Words transcribed many times - and especially proper nouns that fall out of use - can be lost in the continuing effort.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: different Arrian translations and editions.

Post by agesilaos »

And even if we have only one manuscript there will have been many more in existence in antiquity; initially these were copied by people who understood them later not. The most common reason for 'falling out' is just the copyists eye skipping over a word and the editor, who generally checked the copy missing the error. That seems a pretty basic error but ancient texts lack modern word separation and punctuation, spellings alter and are re-emended, garbled names may be removed by the editor who just sees a series of letters not forming a word. If you go to perseus project they have a book in the Latin and Greek Materials detailing the way MSS morph over time and how to identify where it is happening...I was going to say it's fascinating stuff , how sad does that make me and yes I do eat my food in alphabetical order :shock:
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