Mary Renault's Alexander

[Paralus]

'Troy is the first time he's mentioned in the sources, and he's being publicly acknowledged as Patroclus to Alexander's Achilles. No one at the time would have had any doubt what it meant.'
we can't apply modern standards to people who lived thousands of years ago, remember? you said that before. In ancient times there was a sacred bond called FRIENDSHIP (philia). And like Plato said, friendship is one soul in two bodies not ones penis up the other's anus.

'Then there's the psychotic episode when Hephaestion dies. I'd have thought by then, Alexander had lost so many friends that one more was no big deal - had Hephaestion been just one more.'
It is so difficult for you to understand that a man would mourn so much about a guy he doesnt have sex with, because you are approaching friendship as the degenerate thing that has become today.

I can''t speak for the moderators on this forum but, speaking for myself, your homophobic bigotry is not suited to these boards nor is it welcome. You have a hang-up with Alexander's sexuality and you need to sort it out. Lines like that execrable rubbish about what Plato might have said belong elswhere as do the the attitudes that bespeak it.

You also said Alexander had sex with his mother. (?!)
Are you sure he didnt have sex with Philip and Cleopatra too?

Derek, of course, said no such thing. I'm certain that he can defend that though.

[Vanessa Howard]

True enough Paralus

The Youtube link which described homosexuality as 'sick nature' ended its attempt to be taken seriously or as anything other than having a bigoted agenda. Enough already.

This is not the place for these kind of arguments - Pothos has a deserved reputation for fascinating insights and discussion - let's all keep clear of the personal bugbears and get back to what brings us all back to the forum year on year.

Final thought - I’ve always been struck not by who ATG took to his bed but just how restrained he was by the standards of the time, as Semiramis alluded to, I think his father’s ‘ill-discipline’ in this area of his life might have served as a warning to ATG about indulgence (booze aside perhaps…)

[Jemina]

I'm only a lurker here because I always feel very small compared to the many knowledgable people here, so I just read and learn, but now I just can't keep my mouth shut
It's sad that most lengthy discussions arise over the question of Alexander's sexuality. Sometimes you could almost think it's the only thing people care about. It's definitely a modern thing to be so concerned about what someone did or didn't do in bed. And actually, I don't consider his sexual life to be the most crucial thing you could study about Alexander, as it seems to have had little effect on his everyday life. A lot less than logistics, politics and battles at least.
Alexanthros, you really seem to dislike the idea of Alexander having male lovers. Yet we know Philip had them, and plenty, so we can figure it had a certain place in the culture back then. There's also Bagoas. Hephaistion I'm not sure about personally, he could be a lover, a former lover or a brother-like friend or soulmate - frankly I don't care, all that's important to me is that Alexander and Hephaistion had a very rare, extremely close bond, the end of which I think lead to Alexander's early death. What does it matter what kind of bond that was? Sorry, but I don't get it.

As for Renault, I really liked "Fire from Heaven". And frankly I don't think she went into any sexual detail there. Hephaistion obviously has a crush, and Alexander is very distant and often seems to just "get along with it", he's quite asexual in her books I think. "The Persian Boy" is obviously much more sexual and even though I don't mind reading that kind of thing (actually, I've written some ), the novel struck me as a bit "overdone", a bit too much so to speak. But that's just a matter of taste.

I don't think I'll ever understand people who feel the need to "defend" Alexander from "accusations" of being "gay". I don't think anyone living in Alexander's times would even understand what we're talking about...

[aleksandros]

'Troy is the first time he's mentioned in the sources, and he's being publicly acknowledged as Patroclus to Alexander's Achilles. No one at the time would have had any doubt what it meant.'
we can't apply modern standards to people who lived thousands of years ago, remember? you said that before. In ancient times there was a sacred bond called FRIENDSHIP (philia). And like Plato said, friendship is one soul in two bodies not ones penis up the other's anus.

'Then there's the psychotic episode when Hephaestion dies. I'd have thought by then, Alexander had lost so many friends that one more was no big deal - had Hephaestion been just one more.'
It is so difficult for you to understand that a man would mourn so much about a guy he doesnt have sex with, because you are approaching friendship as the degenerate thing that has become today.

I can''t speak for the moderators on this forum but, speaking for myself, your homophobic bigotry is not suited to these boards nor is it welcome. You have a hang-up with Alexander's sexuality and you need to sort it out. Lines like that execrable rubbish about what Plato might have said belong elswhere as do the the attitudes that bespeak it.
.

I am as homophobic for not accepting that the facts are overwhelming as you are heterophobic for doing so in a matter that cant be proven and there are only speculations. How dare you? Who gave you the right to throw such adjectives on me? AIDOS.!
Oh and i am so sorry. Aristotle said that not Plato.(the one on bold)

[aleksandros]

True enough Paralus

The Youtube link which described homosexuality as 'sick nature' ended its attempt to be taken seriously or as anything other than having a bigoted agenda. Enough already.

This is not the place for these kind of arguments - Pothos has a deserved reputation for fascinating insights and discussion - let's all keep clear of the personal bugbears and get back to what brings us all back to the forum year on year.

Final thought - I’ve always been struck not by who ATG took to his bed but just how restrained he was by the standards of the time, as Semiramis alluded to, I think his father’s ‘ill-discipline’ in this area of his life might have served as a warning to ATG about indulgence (booze aside perhaps…)

I didnt give that link to show that i think homosexuality is a sick nature. I gave it for the quotes. You try and get seriously the quotes if they trully exist. If you have learnt not to keep the interesting parts of a passage and erase it as a hole if there is a thought you find wrong in between, then truth might have sliped many times in your life.

[aleksandros]

Alexanthros, you really seem to dislike the idea of Alexander having male lovers. Yet we know Philip had them, and plenty, so we can figure it had a certain place in the culture back then. There's also Bagoas. Hephaistion I'm not sure about personally, he could be a lover, a former lover or a brother-like friend or soulmate - frankly I don't care, all that's important to me is that Alexander and Hephaistion had a very rare, extremely close bond, the end of which I think lead to Alexander's early death. What does it matter what kind of bond that was? Sorry, but I don't get it.
..

I dislike the idea of taking something not certain as certain.

It had a certain place in the culture back then ok, but what makes you think that place was much different than today? If Philip was bisexual i can name numerous bisexuals heads of state, political leaders and commanders of the present. I dont get your point.

It really bugs me that, ok, we are not sure about a thing, Alexander's sexuality. And now we have 2 options, he was bisexual or straigt. And even thought there is no proof of any assumption the ones who claim he was bi come more credible because the ones who dont think so are blamed as homophobics. Its hysterical! To everyone who said that i hate the idea of Alexander having sex with men i respond that you are the ones who hate the idea of him having sex only with women.

[karen]

No, Alexanthros -- what we hate is untruth based on prejudice. And the pure offensiveness of prejudice itself.

Since you can't be bothered to do the homework of consulting the original sources to check your premise:

...he was met by Nabarzanes, who had been given a safe conduct and who now brought Alexander lavish gifts, including Bagoas, an exceptionally good-looking eunuch in the very flower of his youth. Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did, too.

Did you get it?

Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did, too.

In case it still hasn't penetrated (ha ha):

Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did, too.

Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did, too.

Darius had had a sexual relationship with him and presently Alexander did, too.

That's just one quote. There are more, in Curtius and in other sources.

That's the facts. Deal with it.

Karen

[smittysmitty]

I have read many non fiction things. From the ancient sources i ve only studied Arrian and Plutarch.

Alexanthros, not that I take particular interest in the discussion at hand, but I'm a little suprised that you should be approaching the subject matter with such vigour - yet appear to have read little on it.

cheers!

[aleksandros]

What do Arrian, Plutarch, Diodorus say on the Bagoas thing?

if i had sex only with women with no vagina would i be considered heterosexual?

[derek]

Alexanthros,

Whether genuinely or to make a point, you've misunderstood the meaning of the word relationship. You have a relationship with the people you work with, the people living next door, your doctor. The word relationship just refers to how you interact with them. My point is that Alexander appears to have been more comfortable with older, non-sexual, matronly types, which is a hint that he didn't see women as sexual objects. You can (at least I did) detect a pattern when reading the sources. Throughout, he had true and lasting friendships with older women while his only contact with the younger ones was that he married a couple of them, which isn't necessarily an indication of lust in an age when wives were commodities and arranged marriage was standard practice.

Errmmm…if you really want to read a fictional account of Aristotle teaching Alexander - then do read my book! I actually spent time studying Aristotle's works and gleaned enough to depict three or four lessons during the chapters set in Mieza. But be warned, I portray Alexander and Hephaestion as I saw them, and going by the stance you've taken here, it will offend you.

Derek

[ScottOden]

Derek,

Do you have a link where we could find your book?

Best,

Scott

[aleksandros]

Derek,

I dont think a woman in her mid 30s is a non-sexual matternal type of woman. I know most of men in their teen years and their early 20s would love to have relationships with older women. A mature attractive woman can be hot as hell for a young man. The reason these relationships are not so common is because women look for older men, but Alexander was different. He was a King and more mature for his age. He could have any woman he wished.
The assumption that Alexander was not into women because some of his were older than him is psycologically challenged.

Like i said there is room for assumption and for many opinions. You have taken the material from Arrian, Rufus, Plutarch and Diodorus and came to a conclusion that Alexander was into men too. Maybe you could say i am into men too cause i really have a thing for older women and i have some really close friends. We cant be sure about anyone's sexuality if we dont have a cam on him 24/7 without him knowing.

[derek]

Yeah, I'm not a very good salesman, am I.

There are actually two books. The first is called The Lion of Macedonia and is about Alexander's childhood through to setting out for the Hellespont. The second is Lord of the World and covers the whole of the Persian campaign up to the invasion of India. The third will be India and his death, and that's written, but won't be available until earlyish next year. They're self-published, so only available online, and my pen name is John McLeod, which are my middle names.

They can be found on Amazon and so on, and I will one day have a website, but both books are together on this link, which is my page on the publisher's website:

https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/sear ... n=&subcat=

Thanks Scott,


Alexanthros,

Have a read how Alexander captured a tent full of women at Issus, and ignored them. Read how the Queen of the Amazons rode into camp demanding he give her a child, and he failed to deliver. As you say: he could have any woman - and he had precious few.

Derek

[sikander]

Greetings,

I was not going to respond to this post (since modern terms and attitudes seem somewhat irrelevant) but I have decided some clarificaiton is needed as well as a reminder that, whatever your personal feelings, we need to maintain the respectful tone Pothos is known for, whether we are discussing ethnicity, religions, race, gender, orientation or what havew you..
.
What strikes me is that the posters who feel most uncomforable with the idea that Alexander may have been homosexual or bisexual is *really* a discomfort with the idea of sexual activity with men, since that seems to be the focus in some posts.. But such activity is not the sole definition of homosexuality, which leaves open many possibilities without excluding the potential for sexual relationships with men..

While it is true that, outside Bagoas, we have little absolute proof of sexual activity with males, this does not preclude a homosexual orientation, since homosexuality refers to either sexual behavior, sexual attraction, and/or *emotional* attachments between people of the same sex ( homo referring to "same" rather than "man"). In other words, a male or female homosexual does not *have* to participate in sexual activity with a person of the same gender in order to have a homosexual orientation. By the same token, there is nothing to prevent homosexual persons from engaging in heterosexual activity (as indeed, many do for cultural, personal, familial, religious and other reasons).

If we use only the source material to discuss Alexander's orientation, it seems clear that his *emotional* attachments were to males, while he fulfilled his cultural, political and familial requirements through heterosexual marriage when older.

In the end, his orientation does not diminish his accomplishments, nor affect them.

Regards,
Sikander

[aleksandros]

Alexanthros,

Have a read how Alexander captured a tent full of women at Issus, and ignored them. Read how the Queen of the Amazons rode into camp demanding he give her a child, and he failed to deliver. As you say: he could have any woman - and he had precious few.

Derek

The Queen of the Amazons is a myth.

At Issus he said 'Persian women are torments to my eyes'. Is it hard for you to understand that that group was too ugly for him? Why would he say that if he doesnt like women in general? Why to make it specific for Persian women?