The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

Moderator: pothos moderators

Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Xenophon wrote: This enigmatic statement means what? As your edit illustrates, there are many temple fronts of similar type, reflected in Macedonian tomb facades....
Just quickly skimming what my enigmatic statement triggered for you. Helpful to see which way you took that. Explains much. :) Yes, religious. No, not Macedonian Tombs - contrast to Vergina, this is different isn't it? Contrast and compare to Samothrace as well (Ptolemy II's grand entrance). Yes, oracle, could go Apollo but the tripod is sacred to Dionysos too - useful thing to keep in mind.

Oh, and that's the banqueting hall at the cult site to Zeus over in Caria. The temple was finished later and was a different building.
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Zebedee wrote:
Yes, oracle, could go Apollo but the tripod is sacred to Dionysos too - useful thing to keep in mind.
The cauldron tripod had it's beginnings as a large cooking vessel in Cretan/Mycenaean times, but by Classical and Hellenistic times, it had become a 'prize' in the style of Homer for contests, and also a common votive offering to any of the Gods, probably because of it's ancient associations. The most famous tripod was at Delphi, upon which the 'Pythia/High priestess' sat to pronounce her oracles from Apollo.......

Tripods commonly appear in Greek art, on coins etc
Attachments
Delphic tripod Herakles and Apollo fight over the tripod - a common theme.jpg
Delphic tripod Herakles and Apollo fight over the tripod - a common theme.jpg (80.41 KiB) Viewed 9028 times
Delphic tripod Themis gives an oracle to Aegeas red figure vase c.520 BC.jpg
Delphic tripod Themis gives an oracle to Aegeas red figure vase c.520 BC.jpg (54.61 KiB) Viewed 9028 times
Last edited by Xenophon on Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Xenophon wrote: The cauldron tripod had it's beginnings as a large cooking vessel in Cretan/Mycenaean times, but by Classical and Hellenistic times, it had become a 'prize' in the style of Homer for contests, and also a common votive offering to any of the Gods, probably because of it's ancient associations. The most famous tripod was at Delphi, upon which the 'Pythia/High priestess' sat to pronounce her oracles from Apollo.......
Dionysos is far more fun for oracles. You get to prophets in caves under hills that way. And there's wine, lots of wine. But would still need a whole heap more evidence (which likely won't exist) to support the idea for an oracle here. Squinting hard at vividly coloured palimpsests of belief just won't do.

As you said, scepticism warranted. I'm convinced of the allusions being made by the drawing, but not yet convinced by the supposed evidence to support such a drawing. Eheu. That said, seems that something was there. Which is nice.
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Efstathios wrote:
The team knew of the inscription referring to Hephaestion before this whole thing hit the media. That is why they were talking of a Macedonian general all along.
I was hoping to avoid an identity debate, which can never be settled, on this thread. There are a number of reasons why Hephaistion, or any other Macedonian, is extremely unlikely to be the original occupant.
1. The cist grave in chamber 3 is apparently older than the rest of the tomb, implying the tomb was raised over an existing grave if correct.
2. The original occupant I described in Mrs Peristeri's words earlier. He was inhumed in a coffin, and was apparently 1.6 m tall ( his remains have been alternately described as wholly within the grave, but also partially so, having been disturbed)
3. Like Olympias, Hephaistion's remains are last heard of far away, in his case being cremated before the whole army, and Babylon is where his cremains were likely buried. Grandiose schemes to commemorate Hephaistion, not popular with the Diadochi, died with Alexander before anything could actually be built. As to the inscription, there is controversy over whether the monogram really is that of Hephaistion. ( see e.g "Sphinxes" thread Feb-April 2016 thread). Even if it is, it is quite possible that a number of blocks were carved in anticipation, earmarked for Hephaistion, and lay around on Thasos following Alexander's death, and were used later for other purposes, such as the Kasta tomb......

The inscription most certainly does not 'prove' the tomb was Hephaistion's.

I think that Zebedee put it nicely
"why Thracian rather than Greek conceptions of a tomb for a Homeric hero?"
Because there is no evidence for a Greek concept of a tomb for a Homeric hero, like Kasta, that I can think of off the top of my head, and Zebedee has not come up with such a thing either. Do you know of such? I have already drawn parallels to Thracian tombs......
The tomb shares elements from all over. And it fits better to Alexander's globalized concept, rather than being purely Macedonian. Alexander's tomb in Alexandria could have had all these elements as well. Point being, if Alexander gave the coin for this structure, then he must have asked for it to be built according to his panhellenic ideas, and view of Hephaestion as his homeric hero.
Evidence for this assertion please? I don't know of any that point to Alexander as having paid for Kasta........though it is possible, but unlikely that the controversial inscribed blocks were paid for 'up front', because as Agesilaos pointed out on the 'sphinxes' thread, the quarries on Thasos were 'crown property', and so blocks would not need to be paid for by Alexander........
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Long boring answer snipped down to this.
Not at all. Once again I never said anything like this. What you are doing is setting up a “Straw Man” argument. The arguer invents a caricature of the position advocated – a ‘straw man’ –that is easily refuted, but is not the position actually put forward. It is a logical fallacy you repeatedly use.
Then refute it.

Demonstrate that cultural transmission works in the way you want it to. Remove your own hypothesis from the discussion for a moment. How does Greek cultural transmission become apparent in Thracian tombs etc? How does Thracian cultural transmission show up in the Greek speaking world? Let's take your hypothesis a stage further. Let's assume it is as you propose (bits and bobs of each culture creating a unique Amphipolitan culture). Wouldn't it show up in other tombs? In the city itself? What evidence is there for that?

i know you think it's all unfair and nitpicking to highlight this problem. But it's fundamental to your hypothesis here.

Here's an alternate hypothesis. What if this is the heroon of Rhesos. A cult site in an abandoned Thracian graveyard. Initially perhaps a tumulus over cremated remains laid there by Hagnon, but marked as sacred by the initial Athenian colonists who perform cult there at the end of a sacred way leading back to the city walls. Many years later that cult site is expanded. It remains a tumulus, a grave at its heart, but it's styled to blur the lines between monumental Macedonian tomb, as suiting a city with so many of the veterans of the Persian campaigns, the Homeric mound with monumental lion to be seen by travellers from afar, and a temple for a Greek chthonic deity. It matches ideas about Rhesos as a prophet of Bacchus laid to rest in a cavern at the foot of the mountains which are the source of the city's wealth and around which his spirit wanders. The city even goes so far to embrace its legendary founder by surrounding him with the walls of their own city, by moving the walls. :D

There's no evidence to prove that. But it's a fun story to spin and isn't actually provable either way at the moment. Kind of like conjuring things into empty spaces.
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Zebedee wrote:
Xenophon wrote:
Not at all. Once again I never said anything like this. What you are doing is setting up a “Straw Man” argument. The arguer invents a caricature of the position advocated – a ‘straw man’ –that is easily refuted, but is not the position actually put forward. It is a logical fallacy you repeatedly use.


Then refute it.
What the.....? It appears you failed to understand what I said (again)


Setting up a “straw man”, simply so you have something to knock down, typically quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual position( a fallacy in itself), or oversimplifying an opponent's hypothesis, then attacking this oversimplified version.

In this thread, you have more than once committed the above. E.g:

What you're suggesting is someone sat there and said, "We're going to do a Thracian floorplan, fill it with very Greek sculpture and art, and top it off with a huge monumental lion". That's not how it works. The blending would be seen elsewhere.”


You, the arguer, have set out something I never said, even putting it in ‘quote’ marks as if I had. It is an example of a gross misrepresentation of my position. Then you refute, not what I say, but rather the false statement you yourself invented. Easy peasy !
Demonstrate that cultural transmission works in the way you want it to. Remove your own hypothesis from the discussion for a moment. How does Greek cultural transmission become apparent in Thracian tombs etc? How does Thracian cultural transmission show up in the Greek speaking world? Let's take your hypothesis a stage further. Let's assume it is as you propose (bits and bobs of each culture creating a unique Amphipolitan culture). Wouldn't it show up in other tombs? In the city itself? What evidence is there for that?
I’m not going to embark on a huge digression on cultural transmission – start another thread if you want to discuss such a vast subject! I will just briefly say, as an example, that from the 6 C the Greek and Thracian worlds came into repeated contact, and of course there was massive cultural transmission. In Athens for example, Thracian influence became all-pervasive - Thrace affected military tactics, fashion, politics, social mores, art, religion – the worship of the Thracian goddess Bendis (likened to Artemis) became the only officially permitted foreign cult, even becoming an official Athenian festival called the Bendideia etc – so Thrace influenced pretty much every aspect of Athenian life.
Conversely, Thrace was heavily influenced by Athens, and one need look no further than Thracian tombs to see examples – Athenian pottery, Athenian-made silverware, the use of Caryatids etc.

What other tombs? So far we have only Kasta. As to what is left of Amphipolis, elements of Greek, Athenian and Macedonian ( and Roman!) cultural influences abound....
The Amphipolitans themselves were largely a hybrid people of mixed Thracian-Athenian race, as I related earlier.....( see previous posts), and in such a population, some form of hybrid culture is inevitable. One need only check out the archaeological museum......

Here's an alternate hypothesis. What if this is the heroon of Rhesos. A cult site in an abandoned Thracian graveyard. Initially perhaps a tumulus over cremated remains laid there by Hagnon, but marked as sacred by the initial Athenian colonists who perform cult there at the end of a sacred way leading back to the city walls. Many years later that cult site is expanded. It remains a tumulus, a grave at its heart, but it's styled to blur the lines between monumental Macedonian tomb, as suiting a city with so many of the veterans of the Persian campaigns, the Homeric mound with monumental lion to be seen by travellers from afar, and a temple for a Greek chthonic deity. It matches ideas about Rhesos as a prophet of Bacchus laid to rest in a cavern at the foot of the mountains which are the source of the city's wealth and around which his spirit wanders. The city even goes so far to embrace its legendary founder by surrounding him with the walls of their own city, by moving the walls.

There's no evidence to prove that. But it's a fun story to spin and isn't actually provable either way at the moment. Kind of like conjuring things into empty spaces.
My turn to nitpick ! ;-)
Originally, following the prophecy I quoted earlier, Hagnon sent men to Troy who dug up the grave of Rhesus by night and took away the bones. Having laid the bones in a purple chlamys, they brought them to the Strymon river. The barbarians who occupied the place forbade them to cross the river, but Hagnon made a truce for three days, sent the barbarians away and during the night crossed the Strymon with his army and buried the bones of Rhesus near the river. [Polyaenus]

Such a site must have been prone to flooding, so the grave might well have been moved, and where better than the Kasta hill ( not a tumulus) which had been a Thracian cemetery since time immemorial. Later, as Amphipolis flourished, the magnificent Hellenistic Heroon/tomb was constructed to honour its ultimate original Hero founder/’Oikistes’.

What is your source for thinking the Amphipolitans moved their walls to encompass the Kasta hill?
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Xenophon wrote: What the.....? It appears you failed to understand what I said (again)
You're bloviating again. But while you list all the ways Thracian culture entered Greek (and Macedonian) life, consider why NONE of it is explicitly evident in a unique way at Amphipolis as is needed for your hypothesis. The blending happens with things like Bendis appearing as Artemis in votives to her, to the point of not being reliably able to tell whether Artemis or Bendis is being represented at times if her Phrygian clothes aren't there... Would be interesting to contrast that with Thracian portrayals of Bendis? Do any from Thrace itself exist? How about comparing a sanctuary for Bendis in Greece with one in Thrace? Are they the same? How do we tell them apart?

Image

(Marble votive relief, Piraeus, probably from Bendis' sanctuary there.)

'Thracian' cult, Athenian lens to understand it. Syncretism's fun. So returning to Kasta, where is that blending? And it's not really lack of evidence for any to exist in what we know from the site, is it? From what we know of the city? The Thracian Horseman was pretty popular, as he was elsewhere in Macedonia.
What is your source for thinking the Amphipolitans moved their walls to encompass the Kasta hill?
Lefantzis has suggested the limestone blocks behind the peribolos' marble ones are from the walls. (Talk at St.Petersburg, recently).
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Just so we've got some clear assumptions about Thracian monumental tombs, let's just do a quick list of things which would mark one out. I'm going to quote liberally from Rabadjiev's Thracian Tomb as Ritual Space of Beyond (2016).

1. "The particularity of Thracian tumular chamber tomb constructions is that they were all built on ancient ground level, sometimes dug into older tumuli, but never below ground level. In other cultures the underground construction was emphasised by a staircase leading down to the burial chamber, as opposed to (Greek) temples which stood on a three stepped stereobate... The idea of ascension could be seen in the three-stepped platform tomb in the Ostrusha tumulus near Kazanlak, as well as the three-stepped stone staircase in front of the prostyle of the tomb in the Horizont tumulus near Starosel. Furthermore, it is most impressively manifested in the grandiose staircase leading to the tomb in the Chetinyova tumulus near Starosel, a visible sign of the high status of the dead person therein (and his deification?)".

Image

Stairway, Chetinyova tumulus, C5th/4th BC

2. "Another Thracian particularity is the clearly expressed preference for inhumation in chamber tombs... Moreover, the dead body was laid out on a kline inside the burial chamber, not under the floor or in a sarcophagus."

3. A horse sacrifice associated with the actual funeral, typically blocking entrance into the burial chamber.

4. Ritual activity at the entrance to the tumulus, and pits and hearths on the tumulus.

5. Grave markers on tumuli only seem to be known from Hellenistic era onwards (bronze statue of Seuthes III possibly originally on his big hill).
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Zebedee wrote:
You're bloviating again.
That’s not even a proper English word, but rather one of those horrid Americanisms. It refers to American politicians who make very long speeches, essentially saying nothing. Why do you resort to offensive personal insults, especially when they’re obviously untrue?.......and please don’t make the hackneyed excuse that it is just a joke, because it isn’t funny. It lowers the tone of what is otherwise a civil discussion.....
“But while you list ............The Thracian Horseman was pretty popular, as he was elsewhere in Macedonia.”
This section is just irrelevant musing, rhetorical questions and nothing to do with Kasta. (bloviating perhaps? LOL! :lol: :lol: .....sorry, couldn't resist!)

The blending of Greek/Athenian and some Macedonian culture are the main elements in the mix ( but not the only ones, for instance Amphipolis’ silver currency was minted to a Phoenician standard, acceptable all over the Mediterranean.)

For ‘cultural blending’ there is little physical evidence, for not much survives of classical/Hellenistic Amphipolis, nor has it been fully excavated. See below for two examples. The statuette is clearly a Greek-style figure, but is wearing Thracian clothes. The capitol head, from the late Roman era is not Doric, Ionic, or Corinthian or any other Graeco-Roman type, but with its Thracian rams-heads might be decribed as ‘Amphipolitan’ ( Rams-heads were a popular decorative theme throughout Thrace, appearing in art, jewelry, on coins etc)

But there is no 'blending' in the features of the tomb itself. Its layout is clearly Thracian inspired to suit Thracian type religious rituals, but its decoration is purely Greek/Athenian and Macedonian, doubtless because it was done by imported Greek artisans, probably the same Ionian artisans who built tombs, heroons and temples all over the region....

I mentioned earlier that Macedonian tombs do not, as a rule, feature caryatids or sphinxes in their decoration, and tht the only example I knew of was small decorations on the throne of Eurydike from her tomb, and I attach a picture of this.....
"What is your source for thinking the Amphipolitans moved their walls to encompass the Kasta hill?"


Lefantzis has suggested the limestone blocks behind the peribolos' marble ones are from the walls. (Talk at St.Petersburg, recently).
Originally, I thought you meant that Amphipolis extended its walls to include the Kasta hill, in excess of 3 km away as the crow flies, but such a wall would be preposterous ( and rivalling Athens famous ‘long walls’), but I believe you mean that the ‘peribolos’ wall, some 500 metres in circumference was made from sections of the city wall which had fallen into disrepair, some 7.45 km long and in places as much as 7.25 metres high.....
Attachments
Mak throne of Eurydice I, the grandmother of Alexander the Great, showing sphinxes and Caryatids.JPG
Mak throne of Eurydice I, the grandmother of Alexander the Great, showing sphinxes and Caryatids.JPG (54.75 KiB) Viewed 8855 times
Mak Amphipolis Greek statuette of boxer or dancer in Thracian dress.jpg
Mak Amphipolis Greek statuette of boxer or dancer in Thracian dress.jpg (106.29 KiB) Viewed 8855 times
Mak Amphipolis_capitol with rams heads, late Roman era.jpg
Mak Amphipolis_capitol with rams heads, late Roman era.jpg (156.75 KiB) Viewed 8855 times
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Zebedee »

Xenophon wrote: That’s not even a proper English word, but rather one of those horrid Americanisms. It refers to American politicians who make very long speeches, essentially saying nothing. Why do you resort to offensive personal insults, especially when they’re obviously untrue?.......and please don’t make the hackneyed excuse that it is just a joke, because it isn’t funny. It lowers the tone of what is otherwise a civil discussion.....
I wasn't joking. It wasn't an insult, just an accurate description as I searched fruitlessly for you to support your hypothesis with more than assertion. My sincerest apologies if I hurt your feelings in some way, that was not the aim. But I shall not be replying further in this bizarre thread.

This section is just irrelevant musing, rhetorical questions and nothing to do with Kasta. (bloviating perhaps? LOL! :lol: :lol: .....sorry, couldn't resist!)
The reason why you find it irrelevant is the reason why your 'evidence' for a Thracian hypothesis is incorrect. I suspect that you haven't looked at Thracian in any detail beyond the shallowest surface appearance. It's actually fairly relevant to your hypothesis that we have a cult of Artemis rather than a cult of Bendis here at Amphipolis. That Thracian influence clearly didn't extend too far then...
But there is no 'blending' in the features of the tomb itself. Its layout is clearly Thracian inspired to suit Thracian type religious rituals, but its decoration is purely Greek/Athenian and Macedonian, doubtless because it was done by imported Greek artisans, probably the same Ionian artisans who built tombs, heroons and temples all over the region....
Right, the root of the issue I believe. I know of one Thracian tomb which kind of looks a bit like Kasta, perhaps it may be easily missed that it has two interments (on klinai - and buried at different times, perhaps a couple of decades), and the ritual in it is actually in two *further* antechambers on an *extended* dromos done after the second interment. I suspect that's your 'model' for Amphipolis, otherwise I'm bewildered by how you get to 'Thracian'.

I've quoted one of the leading experts on Thracian burials in a post above, and taken his list of attributes of Thracian tombs. How would you say Kasta is "clearly Thracian inspired" in relation to them? Maybe a horse burial and maybe some ritual at the tumulus entrance? Is that enough for you to be so positive? And the horse is, well...
I mentioned earlier that Macedonian tombs do not, as a rule, feature caryatids or sphinxes in their decoration, and tht the only example I knew of was small decorations on the throne of Eurydike from her tomb, and I attach a picture of this.....
Very true. There's a good dozen and more pages dedicated to just that subject on another thread. But lack of Macedonian does not default to Thracian.
Originally, I thought you meant that Amphipolis extended its walls to include the Kasta hill
That does not surprise me. As it would not surprise me if the limestone blocks behind the marble ones did not come from the city walls. ;)
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Zebedee wrote:
I wasn't joking. It wasn't an insult, just an accurate description as I searched fruitlessly for you to support your hypothesis with more than assertion. My sincerest apologies if I hurt your feelings in some way, that was not the aim. But I shall not be replying further in this bizarre thread.
You obviously didn't search very hard!! Start with the title of the thread - any mention of the Kasta tomb being Thracian? No! Because obviously it isn't. Now read my first post.In it I set out why Kasta didn't conform to the Macedonian tomb norm. I also pointed out that Kasta had certain features or characteristics/traits that complied with known Thracian religious and monumental tomb practises. At no time did I suggest Kasta was a "Thracian" tomb.
These are very different, being built by an agricultural rather than urban society of 'barbarian' Thracians, for their own cultural reasons, including divine ancestor worship - which seems to be a characteristic of the Kasta tomb. I won't trouble to repeat the evidence I provided at length, including illustrations.

This section is just irrelevant musing, rhetorical questions and nothing to do with Kasta. (bloviating perhaps? LOL! :lol: :lol: .....sorry, couldn't resist!)
The reason why you find it irrelevant is the reason why your 'evidence' for a Thracian hypothesis is incorrect.
Oh? So now you agree that I DID provide evidence, ( that you 'searched fruitlessly for' :lol: ) but now you assert it is 'incorrect', contradicting yourself! And this despite the fact that you set forth a very similar hypothesis! By the way, I don't have a hypothesis that the Kasta tomb is "Thracian". I have called it consistently unique, and with that in mind dubbed it 'Amphopolitan'.
I suspect that you haven't looked at Thracian in any detail beyond the shallowest surface appearance. It's actually fairly relevant to your hypothesis that we have a cult of Artemis rather than a cult of Bendis here at Amphipolis. That Thracian influence clearly didn't extend too far then...
On the contrary, I carefully researched the contents of this proposed thread for over a year before posting....... Hagnon's original patrons of the city were Apollo, Athena, and Artemis - the latter likely a Hellenisation of Bendis, and doubtless native Thracian-speakers referred to her as such. Their temples probably stood on the Acropolis ( no archaeological remains yet). The first coins struck by the city showed Apollo on one side, and a racing torch on the other - most likely an allusion to the mounted torch race run in Athens at night as part of the 'Bendideia"[see C. Lorber 'Amphipolis:the coinage in silver and gold' Los Angeles 1990 for discussion of the various cults evidenced in coinage]. So we have 'Thracian influence' right from the "get-go"
But there is no 'blending' in the features of the tomb itself. Its layout is clearly Thracian inspired to suit Thracian type religious rituals, but its decoration is purely Greek/Athenian and Macedonian, doubtless because it was done by imported Greek artisans, probably the same Ionian artisans who built tombs, heroons and temples all over the region....
Right, the root of the issue I believe. I know of one Thracian tomb which kind of looks a bit like Kasta, perhaps it may be easily missed that it has two interments (on klinai - and buried at different times, perhaps a couple of decades), and the ritual in it is actually in two *further* antechambers on an *extended* dromos done after the second interment. I suspect that's your 'model' for Amphipolis, otherwise I'm bewildered by how you get to 'Thracian'.
You are distorting what I posted yet again! I don't have a 'model' for Kasta - I have repeatedly descibed it as unique, and I have never referred to it as a "Thracian" tomb, because it isn't. I do refer to Thracian religion, rituals and tomb/heroon practcises as having an influence on the unique Kasta tomb!
I've quoted one of the leading experts on Thracian burials in a post above, and taken his list of attributes of Thracian tombs. How would you say Kasta is "clearly Thracian inspired" in relation to them? Maybe a horse burial and maybe some ritual at the tumulus entrance? Is that enough for you to be so positive? And the horse is, well...
The Thracian characteristics and traits that clearly influence Kasta - the size and purpose of the large chambers, the accessibility etc I have alluded to. Greek/Macedonian tombs don't have those traits. I did not refer to the traits you quote because obviously they are not present at Kasta ( which for the "N"th time is NOT actually a Thracian tomb).Once again you are setting up a "straw man" to demolish, referring to characteristics of actual Thracian tombs, when Kasta is clearly not one of these, and I have never said it was.

The whole "Thracian Tomb" thing you propose to embark on is just a 'Red Herring'. If you want to discuss Thracian Tombs and their characteristics, I suggest you start another thread for that subject, notwithstanding the longstanding 'tradition' at Pothos of digression. ( It makes it a lot easier to search for on its own thread).
I mentioned earlier that Macedonian tombs do not, as a rule, feature caryatids or sphinxes in their decoration, and that the only example I knew of was small decorations on the throne of Eurydike from her tomb, and I attach a picture of this.....
Very true. There's a good dozen and more pages dedicated to just that subject on another thread. But lack of Macedonian does not default to Thracian.
Who says it does? Yet another example of something I did not say being refuted!!
Originally, I thought you meant that Amphipolis extended its walls to include the Kasta hill
That does not surprise me. As it would not surprise me if the limestone blocks behind the marble ones did not come from the city walls. ;)
The ambiguity came from you expressing yourself in a second language, and hence not clearly.....

As I have repeatedly said, I am always skeptical of Lefantzis' pronouncements. According to Efstathios:
"According to the latest news, Mihalis Lefantzis announced that the limestone bricks that were used behind the marble ones at the tomb came from the Amphipolis wall, and the total length that was removed from the wall is equivalent to that for the construction of the tomb"

If Esftathios is correctly reporting, then Lefantzis is displaying considerable ignorance of the subject. In the first place the walls of Amphipolis went through a number of construction stages, in different styles. Not to mention repairs, changes and additions down the centuries. In the second place, given that in later centuries the the walls were constantly 'stone robbed', how could the length he believes was removed at that time possibly be determined? Thirdly, even the sections of wall still extant have not been fully excavated!

So I agree with you on this, it would not surprise me either if the limestone blocks did not come from the city walls......though just possibly they might be 'leftovers' from some repair or remodelling process.
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by gepd »

Lefantzis statements appear always incomplete, partly because that is his way of making presentations and partly due to bad press. But just to clarify what has been said about the walls:

-About 497 m of walls at the N/NE of Amphipolis that have been excavated in the past show signs of large scale repairs/reconstruction or are missing.
-These repairs have been dated to the end of 4th century BC by Koukouli-Chrysanthaki (previous director/archaeologist of the ephorate at Serres)
-The coincidence of the wall length with the perimeter of Kasta is notable, but what actually matters (but was not mentioned in the press reports) is the volume. Also, I am not sure which publication by Koukouli-Chrysanthaki he refers to and whether in that work it is clarified if repairs at the 4th century BC concern all the 497 m of walls he talks about.
-Press reports imply that Lefantzis did comparisons in the type of limestone (blocks?) existing at the wall and Kastas and found similarities. It is not clarified if this comparison concerns the chemical composition of the limestone and/or architectural elements on the blocks (e.g. he found clumps on the peribolos blocks, that are consistent with the ones on the Amphipolis wall blocks etc.)

Overall, the findings by Lefantzis raise lots of questions but with what was publicised, it impossible to understand if his conclusions make sense or not.

I think presentations will continue to be ambiguous, unfortunately some things do not seem to change. I hope it won't take long before they publish some results, where they have no choice but to be clear.
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

Thanks Gepd for posting your clarifying remarks :D
gepd wrote:Lefantzis statements appear always incomplete, partly because that is his way of making presentations and partly due to bad press. But just to clarify what has been said about the walls:

-About 497 m of walls at the N/NE of Amphipolis that have been excavated in the past show signs of large scale repairs/reconstruction or are missing.
-These repairs have been dated to the end of 4th century BC by Koukouli-Chrysanthaki (previous director/archaeologist of the ephorate at Serres)
That doesn't seem to be the case at all. Koukouli-Chrysanthaki wrote in "Excavating classical Amphipolis" ( available online in English) :
"A second phase of construction, dated to the middle of the 4th century BC[not the end], can be seen in the eastern fortification wall, as well as in the building complexes on each side of the road leading to the eastern gate. The eastern wall was repaired and the eastern gate was filled up with masonry and earthworks piled up against it [fig. 2, pI. tOC]. Large quantities of soil were brought and deposited here, so as to level the difference in height between the walls and the buildings inside them. At the same period extensive building works took place in the two blocks on either side of the road leading to the gate. "

That would be around the time Philip II captured the city, in 357 BC. In times of danger it was usual for cities to 'beef up' their defences with repairs, extensions and the addition of temporary structures......
-The coincidence of the wall length with the perimeter of Kasta is notable, but what actually matters (but was not mentioned in the press reports) is the volume. Also, I am not sure which publication by Koukouli-Chrysanthaki he refers to and whether in that work it is clarified if repairs at the 4th century BC concern all the 497 m of walls he talks about.
And it is just that, co-incidence - or more likely imaginative fantasy, for it is not possible to determine this, as I indicated before.Let us do some rough 'back of an envelope' calculations. The 'peribolos' has a single wall of marble facing blocks backed by limestone blocks, apparently some 2,500 which provide some 500m long x 3 m high = 1,500 square metres of facing,which cover the same area of limestone blocks, allegedly from the city walls.
Amphipolis would have had an inner and outer facing wall, some 2-3metres apart, with the space filled with rubble and earth, which was up to 7.5 metres high.( a typical wall height would be in the 6-10 metre range for Hellenistic fortifications). ( see photo below)

To provide 1500 square metres of facing or backing limestone wall would require 7.5 x 2 (inner and outer wall) x 100 metre length aprox = 1,500 square metres of marble facing/limestone backing - nowhere near 497 metres, but rather 100m !!! And this leaves aside why Amphipolis would render itself effectively defenceless just to build the 'peribolos'......unless it was done at a time when repairs/restoration/replacement was undertaken, using the earlier 'old' walls, which seems unlikely, given the identical architecture...... ( see photos below)

-Press reports imply that Lefantzis did comparisons in the type of limestone (blocks?) existing at the wall and Kastas and found similarities. It is not clarified if this comparison concerns the chemical composition of the limestone and/or architectural elements on the blocks (e.g. he found clamps on the peribolos blocks, that are consistent with the ones on the Amphipolis wall blocks etc.)
Unfortunately this proves nothing! Presumably the limestone came from a local quarry so in any case the blocks are going to be chemically and geologically identical. As to architecturally, as can be seen in the photos, some parts of the city wall at least, are the same as the 'peribolos' structurally - but this, even if clamp positions are the same, simply shows they were built around the same era, using that style - but may be tens of years apart (or more) or at the other extreme, built by the same artisans....
Note in the two photos that the 'peribolos' wall's facing marble is 'drafted' ( border edges smoothed out) whilst the city wall section is not.....
Overall, the findings by Lefantzis raise lots of questions but with what was publicised, it impossible to understand if his conclusions make sense or not.

I think presentations will continue to be ambiguous, unfortunately some things do not seem to change. I hope it won't take long before they publish some results, where they have no choice but to be clear.
I find the pronouncements of Lefantzis, like you, bewildering....and he often seems to get his facts wrong.....
Attachments
Amphipolis_Wall showing rubble core construction between inner and outer facing wall.jpg
Amphipolis_Wall showing rubble core construction between inner and outer facing wall.jpg (195.54 KiB) Viewed 8742 times
Mak Amphipolis surviving section of city wall.JPG
Mak Amphipolis surviving section of city wall.JPG (58.78 KiB) Viewed 8745 times
Kasta peribolos wall section.jpg
Kasta peribolos wall section.jpg (8.79 KiB) Viewed 8745 times
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by gepd »

I agree with the essence of your comments Xenophon, but I am still curious to see what arguments back up any of Lefantzis' claims about that subject, since I find hard to believe for instance that he didnt at least think to compare volume instead of length.

Lefantzis claims that there is a paper where reparatory work on the walls has been dated to the end of the 4th century, based on coins and ceramics. They of course need to give that reference! I assume also that the walls were not removed to their foundations: the assumption of how much wall height was removed will define the length in your calculation. I do however believe that the length of 497 m is very likely a coincidence.

I would only disagree with that:
Note in the two photos that the 'peribolos' wall's facing marble is 'drafted' ( border edges smoothed out) whilst the city wall section is not.....
The city wall is limestone, while at Kastas the limestone construction concerns the retaining wall of the marble peribolos. The retaining wall was not visible, its limestone blocks did not need a drafting or careful working for their appearence, just a smooth surface and size so that the marble blocks can be placed on them.
User avatar
Xenophon
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:16 am

Re: The Kasta tomb Amphipolis - not a "Macedonian" tomb?

Post by Xenophon »

GEPD wrote:
Lefantzis claims that there is a paper where reparatory work on the walls has been dated to the end of the 4th century, based on coins and ceramics. They of course need to give that reference! I assume also that the walls were not removed to their foundations: the assumption of how much wall height was removed will define the length in your calculation. I do however believe that the length of 497 m is very likely a coincidence.
Agreed! Lefantzis evidently assumes only the top 3 metres or so were removed - but how can you possibly tell when there is little or nothing there now? Even if you did just take the upper section, the remaining 3-4 metres high wall would not be much of an obstacle to besiegers.....( see map of extant sections below.Only the 'solid' lines -a few short sections - still exist, just enough to trace the path of the wall).

It will be interesting to see Lefantzis rationale and evidence for his conclusions - if we ever do!

Hagnon originally circumvallated the acropolis with a polygonal wall after establishing the colony from 437 onward, but such massive fortification works took years to complete. In 424 when Brasidas took the city, the city walls were still incomplete and part was still only protected by a palisade. Brasidas renovated and extended the original walls, and this work would have continued down to Philip's attack (357) and after, until the walls reached their full extent ( see map of extant sections for walls at fullest extent, and map of walls in 424 ). In fact work on the walls went on pretty much down to the 8 C AD in Byzantine times.
I would only disagree with that:
Note in the two photos that the 'peribolos' wall's facing marble is 'drafted' ( border edges smoothed out) whilst the city wall section is not....
The city wall is limestone, while at Kastas the limestone construction concerns the retaining wall of the marble peribolos. The retaining wall was not visible, its limestone blocks did not need a drafting or careful working for their appearance, just a smooth surface and size so that the marble blocks can be placed on them.
Yes that was my point, that when looking at the photos one should bear in mind that the 'peribolos' shows the 'drafted' decorative marble rather than the limestone beneath, while the photo of the city walls shows the unfaced limestone blocks.....we agree on this.

Lastly, I have mentioned 'polygonal' walls several times, being the original walls of Hagnon. These were around 1 m thick, and solid, and were made of irregular polygon shapes, hence the name. Two advantages of this type of structure ( which went back to Mycenaean times, but continued) were that it was 'earthquake proof', and that since the masons only had to shape the facing side, the blocks were much quicker to prepare than '3D' rectangular blocks. The disadvantage is that, for obvious reasons, polygonal walls took longer to erect than regular ones......
Attachments
Mak Amphipolis section of polygonal wall.JPG
Mak Amphipolis section of polygonal wall.JPG (87.25 KiB) Viewed 8701 times
Amphipolis plan of walls at fullest extent showing sections still extant.JPG
Amphipolis plan of walls at fullest extent showing sections still extant.JPG (43.21 KiB) Viewed 8701 times
Amphipolis walls as at 422 BC.JPG
Amphipolis walls as at 422 BC.JPG (97.44 KiB) Viewed 8701 times
Post Reply