ptsd in Alexanders army

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spitamenes
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ptsd in Alexanders army

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Has there ever been, to anyones knowledge, any evidence brought forward of post traumatic stress disorder in the macedonian army? I can't seem to find anything that deals specifically with Alexander or his Army.
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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spitamenes wrote:Has there ever been, to anyones knowledge, any evidence brought forward of post traumatic stress disorder in the macedonian army? I can't seem to find anything that deals specifically with Alexander or his Army.
I'm not sure I know what the symptoms of PTSD are. Did they deal with their stress by excessive drinking (Cleitus, the 'revel' in Carmania, etc)? Or with excessive violence and brutality (pretty much all of India)?

There certainly have been writers who have hinted as much - does Holt indeed do so? I'm thinking that David Lonsdale does, as well, in Alexander, killer of men, although it would be a hard task to wade through my books trying to establish who it is who talks about it.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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Armies post trametic Stress disorder.

I would like to ask opinions of Porthonions of the word hero maybe it would be controvercial?

Wars and soldiers and soldiers been heroes.In Alexanders time and today.

We see solders with limbs missing in Wheel chairs injured very badly,,The media people etc call them heroes...Now to me thats not quite right...These soldiers go to war with every chance and aim they might and probably will do the exact same thing to some one defending what is there country and way if life wether we agree with it or not.

Is a boxer a hero who gets knocked out trying to do to someone elsewhat infact happened to him?
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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bessusww wrote:Armies post trametic Stress disorder.

I would like to ask opinions of Porthonions of the word hero maybe it would be controvercial?

Wars and soldiers and soldiers been heroes.In Alexanders time and today.

We see solders with limbs missing in Wheel chairs injured very badly,,The media people etc call them heroes...Now to me thats not quite right...These soldiers go to war with every chance and aim they might and probably will do the exact same thing to some one defending what is there country and way if life wether we agree with it or not.

Is a boxer a hero who gets knocked out trying to do to someone elsewhat infact happened to him?
A boxer is not willingly putting his life on the line for the values of his country. Where I am from, anyone who has willingly, and honorably served in combat is considered a hero. which seems to be different from Alexanders day.
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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bessusww wrote:I would like to ask opinions of Porthonions of the word hero maybe it would be controvercial?
Not necessarily controversial, but perhaps we could steer clear of getting into any sort of criticism (of any kind) of modern conflicts, politics, etc. I'm sure that's not your intention, but I can see where this could end up leading!

Perhaps someone would like to comment on the attitudes of the Greeks towards soldiers returning from wars, but ensure we don't end up discussing modern issues.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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maybe so marcus.

3 weeks ago I observed St Leonards Nursing Staff selflessly caring for my Father in Law through Pancriatis Cancer.They were heroes. Doctors nurses and Medics working 18 hour shifts for moderate pay those are heroes.

Reall heroes to me are the unsung types...Volunteers carers etc working for hardly anything.

If I intentionally go out on the weekend intending fighting and I get beat up...its my own fault for going down the path.

As John Lydon says in the Country Life Butter add about farmers.

"Its there career choice"
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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I've read a few short atricles about roman soldiers returning home and haveing symptoms vaguely similar to ptsd. But for the most part it seems like a modern disorder. In WW2 they called it battle fatigue. Which is more directly associated with battle than ptsd. Because anyone who has been in an extreemely traumatic situation, battle or otherwise, can be diagnosed with the disorder. Why would this be a more modern issue? Especially since battle was on a much more personal level then. I wondered if its just our modern ways of thinking that have changed our preception of man killing man. If it was psychologically more justified within a person to do the things that are done in battle. I've read Macedonians most likely drank alcohol before battle for courage and after battle to celebrate victory. But I don't think that would soften the effects of taking another human life, enemy or not, or the effects of seeing your brothers fall in combat. Does anyone think it was an issue, just covered up by propaganda or morale reasons? Or is it a strictly modern disorder?
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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marcus wrote:
Perhaps someone would like to comment on the attitudes of the Greeks towards soldiers returning from wars, but ensure we don't end up discussing modern issues.

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What were the attitudes of the Greeks or Macedonians towards soldiers returning home? Over here, vietnam was considered a disaster basically, and although nowdays the veterans of that war are revered equally with all other vets, at the time,(before my time), the returning soldiers were being spit on as they got off the planes. That is unheard of nowdays. Just because there are people who understand these men and women are putting they're lives on the line so civilians can live they're everyday lives without interference. Id like to know what the macedonians felt about the conquest of Persia, if it was justified enough for the general population to accept the reasons for the kingdom to send they're sons to fight in a foreign land. Once again, propaganda probably had a big part in the justification process.
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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marcus wrote:
spitamenes wrote:Has there ever been, to anyones knowledge, any evidence brought forward of post traumatic stress disorder in the macedonian army? I can't seem to find anything that deals specifically with Alexander or his Army.
I'm not sure I know what the symptoms of PTSD are. Did they deal with their stress by excessive drinking (Cleitus, the 'revel' in Carmania, etc)? Or with excessive violence and brutality (pretty much all of India)?

There certainly have been writers who have hinted as much - does Holt indeed do so? I'm thinking that David Lonsdale does, as well, in Alexander, killer of men, although it would be a hard task to wade through my books trying to establish who it is who talks about it.

ATB
My experience with ptsd has been shown to have different stages as time goes on. The "excessive violence and brutality" that was shown in india could very easily have a connection with the disorder. In WW2 it was know as "shell shock" or "battle fatigue". Nowdays ptsd is a more broad diagnosis that can involve not only combat but any extreemely traumatic experience. (Witnessing terrorism strikes, car crashes even).
I think the disorder could be used to explain at least some of the more erratic behaviors of the macedonian army and even Alexander himself towards the end of the campaign. These soldiers were not machines. They were as human as we are today.
And I will have to go back through Holts book to see if there are any mentions of the issue. If its anywhere I would believe it to be in there.
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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spitamenes wrote:
What were the attitudes of the Greeks or Macedonians towards soldiers returning home? Over here, vietnam was considered a disaster basically, and although nowdays the veterans of that war are revered equally with all other vets, at the time,(before my time), the returning soldiers were being spit on as they got off the planes. That is unheard of nowdays. Just because there are people who understand these men and women are putting they're lives on the line so civilians can live they're everyday lives without interference. Id like to know what the macedonians felt about the conquest of Persia, if it was justified enough for the general population to accept the reasons for the kingdom to send they're sons to fight in a foreign land.[/b] Once again, propaganda probably had a big part in the justification process.
(My italics)

Thing is, the majority of the general population wasn't back home in Macedonia - it was out there fighting in the foreign land. :) The opinions of women weren't even considered so we'll never know their feelings about the campaign, and although a number of troops were left home in Macedonia to protect their country, the largest proportion was over in Persia - fathers and sons.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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amyntoros wrote:
spitamenes wrote:
What were the attitudes of the Greeks or Macedonians towards soldiers returning home? Over here, vietnam was considered a disaster basically, and although nowdays the veterans of that war are revered equally with all other vets, at the time,(before my time), the returning soldiers were being spit on as they got off the planes. That is unheard of nowdays. Just because there are people who understand these men and women are putting they're lives on the line so civilians can live they're everyday lives without interference. Id like to know what the macedonians felt about the conquest of Persia, if it was justified enough for the general population to accept the reasons for the kingdom to send they're sons to fight in a foreign land.[/b] Once again, propaganda probably had a big part in the justification process.
(My italics)

Thing is, the majority of the general population wasn't back home in Macedonia - it was out there fighting in the foreign land. :) The opinions of women weren't even considered so we'll never know their feelings about the campaign, and although a number of troops remained in Macedonia to protect their country, the largest proportion was over in Persia - fathers and sons.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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bessusww wrote:maybe so marcus.

3 weeks ago I observed St Leonards Nursing Staff selflessly caring for my Father in Law through Pancriatis Cancer.They were heroes. Doctors nurses and Medics working 18 hour shifts for moderate pay those are heroes.

Reall heroes to me are the unsung types...Volunteers carers etc working for hardly anything.

If I intentionally go out on the weekend intending fighting and I get beat up...its my own fault for going down the path.

As John Lydon says in the Country Life Butter add about farmers.

"Its there career choice"
Indeed. This should really be in the "Off topic" forum.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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amyntoros wrote:
amyntoros wrote:
spitamenes wrote:
What were the attitudes of the Greeks or Macedonians towards soldiers returning home? Over here, vietnam was considered a disaster basically, and although nowdays the veterans of that war are revered equally with all other vets, at the time,(before my time), the returning soldiers were being spit on as they got off the planes. That is unheard of nowdays. Just because there are people who understand these men and women are putting they're lives on the line so civilians can live they're everyday lives without interference. Id like to know what the macedonians felt about the conquest of Persia, if it was justified enough for the general population to accept the reasons for the kingdom to send they're sons to fight in a foreign land.[/b] Once again, propaganda probably had a big part in the justification process.
(My italics)

Thing is, the majority of the general population wasn't back home in Macedonia - it was out there fighting in the foreign land. :) The opinions of women weren't even considered so we'll never know their feelings about the campaign, and although a number of troops remained in Macedonia to protect their country, the largest proportion was over in Persia - fathers and sons.

Best regards,


thank you,
The reason why the feelings of the rest of the macedonian population is relevant is because that might have had an effect of the way the soldiers thought about themselves and they're actions. If the population was not behind the campaign then the soldiers morale would go south very fast. If your fighting and believe your country is behind you then it can be justified to a certain extent. I'm wondering if the behavior of the army and even Alexander himself towards the end of the campaign might have been in some way effected by ptsd. The particularly brutal battles in India and Alexanders somewhat erratic behavior in the end might be connected somehow to this.
I'm starting to think there could be a connection between the two.

Marcus,
I'm trying to steer clear of any modern issues, I appreciate you letting this stay for now.
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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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spitamenes wrote:Marcus,
I'm trying to steer clear of any modern issues, I appreciate you letting this stay for now.
No problem with your posts, Spitamenes; and your references to modern experiences are perfectly relevant. I just want to avoid the political sniping that might (have) start(ed) coming in from others, which don't bear any relation to the topic you've introduced.

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Re: ptsd in Alexanders army

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spitamenes wrote: thank you,
The reason why the feelings of the rest of the macedonian population is relevant is because that might have had an effect of the way the soldiers thought about themselves and they're actions. If the population was not behind the campaign then the soldiers morale would go south very fast. If your fighting and believe your country is behind you then it can be justified to a certain extent. I'm wondering if the behavior of the army and even Alexander himself towards the end of the campaign might have been in some way effected by ptsd. The particularly brutal battles in India and Alexanders somewhat erratic behavior in the end might be connected somehow to this.
I'm starting to think there could be a connection between the two.
I wonder though exactly which events or experiences might have been "traumatic" for Alexander's army? Slavery and the taking of captives as slaves was the norm, as was the destruction of whole cities and the slaughter of the male occupants, if ordered. Alexander certainly wasn't the first to do so. Torture was approved when circumstances demanded it. Rape of captives was acceptable as long as the woman didn't come from a noble family (!). And every young boy expected to be a soldier and fight in hand-to-hand combat when he became older. If one grew up in this kind of environment and/or was an already seasoned soldier by the time of the Persian campaign, would events like the battles in India (or the crossing of the Gedrosia) bring about the same kind of personal breakdown now associated with PTSD?

As for one's country being behind the army, well I'm not sure if that mattered too much to the Macedonians. To the Greeks with the army, maybe, because of the way the campaign was promoted. But I suspect that for the Macedonians it was more about the "booty".

Interesting question.

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