Oration the tool to Fool

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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bessusww
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Oration the tool to Fool

Post by bessusww »

I thought I would bring the topic of oration to the Pothos as I do believe its rather a more potent weapon than most Swords..

I hear the Orations of Demosthenese and the speel that brought destruction to the Greek city states who were foolish enough to run with his words Thebes.

I look at Alexander who surely had the gift of oratory as well lets be clear his words tricked the Macedonians t chase who ever through the hindu Kush based on some kind of Panhellenic Crusade of Vengeance.

People dare not talk about Hitler without been labeles a fascist or a Nazi..But oration was his gift that took the whole world to turn over.

John f Kennedy also who I cant recall any actual thing he Achieved and now Barrak Obama. And to be honest cant see anything hes actually accomplished...My point is Alexander is credited with great military genius but at the same time as we say up north he had the gift of the gabb
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spitamenes
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by spitamenes »

You are absolutely correct, alexander Must have been a smooth talker to be able to get his men to follow him to the ends of earth, what separates him in my opinion is the fact that he led his men into combat himself. There are very few commanders in history who can boast that fact. What would people do if they saw Obama in combat dress leading a charge in the Iraq desert. It would guaruntee re election I'm sure of that! :) and would I be considered a Nazi if I stated Hitler had the gift of gabb? :D
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marcus
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by marcus »

bessusww wrote:John f Kennedy also who I cant recall any actual thing he Achieved and now Barrak Obama. And to be honest cant see anything hes actually accomplished...
Alexander, however, didn't have the Republicans attempting to block everything that he did, though. Kennedy didn't achieve much, but only because the Republicans blocked his reforms in the Senate ... and then he was assassinated before he could do much more. He did avert a nuclear war in 1962, though. As for Obama, he has the same problem with the Republicans - remember how his very sensible attempt to change the healthcare system in the US was blocked; and he hasn't even fininshed one term in office yet.

But you cannot look at their failures and use that to say that they aren't great orators.

Hitler's a bit more complicated. Yes, it is fair to say that he gave good speeches, but he was a demogogue. I wonder how far he can be credited with truly great oratory?

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spitamenes
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

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I have never read any of Hitlers speeches that have been transcribed into English, but I've always assumed that if he could get the people of Germany to do what they did just by what he said, then he had some very convincing oratory skills. It seemed to be almost to the point of some kind of mass brainwash system that he accomplished. I wouldn't put the words Hitler and Great in the same sentence.(well, I guess I just did). But he was able to accomplish some very major goals for himself by the use of words alone.
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:I have never read any of Hitlers speeches that have been transcribed into English, but I've always assumed that if he could get the people of Germany to do what they did just by what he said, then he had some very convincing oratory skills. It seemed to be almost to the point of some kind of mass brainwash system that he accomplished. I wouldn't put the words Hitler and Great in the same sentence.(well, I guess I just did). But he was able to accomplish some very major goals for himself by the use of words alone.
Well, although I'd rather not let this get into a long thread about Hitler ... the German people were very unhappy about the Treaty of Versailles, so it wasn't a great leap of rhetorical faith to realise that promising to undo the Treaty would appeal to the majority of Germans. The Nazi Party's 25-point programme was filled with contradictions (not least calling themselves Nationalist and Socialist at the same time) so that just about anyone could find something that appealed to them, and conveniently ignore the points that didn't). Even then, the Nazis remained very much a fringe party until the Great Depression, when the Germans were prepared to vote for anyone who promised a way out of the mess the country was in. So Hitler was extremely lucky ... and his use of violence, or the threat of violence, assisted him in gaining votes that might otherwise not have come his way. Had the Great Depression not happened, the Nazis would probably have remained a fringe party.

He was certainly a powerful speaker; but not necessarily a great orator (except inasmuch as he was able to appeal to a wide range of people by saying what they wanted to hear). I bet that very few of the Germans voted for the Nazis in the expectation that they would create a totalitarian police state ...

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spitamenes
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by spitamenes »

Well, in order to steer this thread back on track, a bit, who do you believe to be a more successful orator? Alexander? Or Hitler? Alexander was obviously much more successful as a general, and leader, and more things to list to be honest. But when it came to getting the people to believe in, and fight for what was being said, who has the edge? Not judging the oration by the amount of success of course. Because Hitler is left in the dust.
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Well, in order to steer this thread back on track, a bit, who do you believe to be a more successful orator? Alexander? Or Hitler? Alexander was obviously much more successful as a general, and leader, and more things to list to be honest. But when it came to getting the people to believe in, and fight for what was being said, who has the edge? Not judging the oration by the amount of success of course. Because Hitler is left in the dust.
I suppose it depends on what the judging criteria are. Hitler was remarkably successful, militarily until Summer 1940, after all ... it started going downhill somewhat after that; but oratorically he was pretty successful beyond that ... then again, after 1934 it wasn't as if anyone was going to oppose anything he said. If one believes that Alexander himself actually wanted to turn back at the Hyphasis, then you could say that, from an oratorical point of view, he was successful right up to 323.

Let's leave it there! :?

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bessusww
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by bessusww »

Spell bounding is the word...And to be really brief...I cant talk German nor do I understand anything Hitler said...But the speaches were mezmorizing and high drama.

To have that kind of enigmatic power goes a long way...I cant say Hitler was good looking or had any attributes to admire but the speaches were something else.

It echoes back to voices and a voice very much at the peak and Alexander related,,,,Richard Burton to hear Burton read a telephone directory would be inspiring...The Oratory of War of the Worlds is an Example and some on the Alexander speaches he did in the movie...His voice and persona was convincing....I remember his fall out with Philip in the movie...Richard Burton gave Alexander the Confidence not to fear Philip to to actually cut his throat un like Collin Farrels weapy response.

Quite a few of the Burtons orations were definitive and powerful...

I particullaly like the response to Darius Calling him an Arrogant and Shameless bow who came to Asia to steal and cause mischieve.

Burtons final enswer was" I am comming against you and having trusted myself to the immortal gods.I will be victorious"

I just love a lot of those Burton speaches
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spitamenes
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by spitamenes »

And some of Alexanders "letters" to Darius, telling Darius not to refer to him as an equal ever again, and how he must refer to him as king of all asia, or something close to that. Even the words put into Alexanders mouth are very powerful as I recall what I've read. If I had three places to go in history, one would most likely be to see Alexander giving a rousing speech before Gaugamela. Come to think of it, Alexander would have at least two of the three of my little time travels. :D
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Re: Oration the tool to Fool

Post by the_accursed »

Hitler was a significantly greater speaker than Alexander. To me his speeches may sound like the barkings of a dog, but the results are undeniable. The Macedonians listened to Alexander because he was their king, and did what he told them to do (most of the time) for that reason. Not because of his "oratory", and certainly not because of his "charisma". Hitler on the other hand was a nobody who rose to become one of the most powerful people in the world, all thanks to his talent for oratory. In that area, there's no comparison between the two.
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