Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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bessusww
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Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by bessusww »

Sorry to Pothonians.

I keep refering to BBC history and Archiological Programes...Today was a programe looking at Genesis and Adam and Eve.

I looked at it with the viewpoint of Sceptic...Then things started been sad that I could draw to Alexander.

The theory was this Biblical Scholar believed the story of Adam and Eve to be historically based on a man made Garden and that Adam was actually a King tending this glorious garden between his kingdom and that of god.

Then The stuff about a garden been fed by canals etc. And the City Garden been guarded at the the Entrance by Cherubs...Only these cherubs where those lion shaped creatures with Persian hair and beards.

It continued with the River Euphrates and my readings and understandings were leading me to the Garden of Babylon...Anyway I was on the wrong track the lady concluded that the Garden was located in the Ancient City of Jeruselem and that the king was an Israel kig that got banished at the time when the Babylonians Crushed Israe and shifted the Jews to Babylon.

However the king theoretically could be a Babylonian king tending the Gardens of Babylon which I may conclude had a godly influence and could therefore be the Garden of Eden.

Just as a piece of my own romantic Fiction it could be said Alexander the Great actually died in the Garden of Eden.

I apologise if this post seems crazy but I thought It would add
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spitamenes
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by spitamenes »

Bessusww,
You should try to find some arial view images of babylon in recent times. You can easily see the foundation remains of what could be the tower of babel. One of the ancient wonders. Its unmistakeable in scale compared to everything else in the city. I've seen paintings of the the tower and right across the main road would be the hanging gardens. Which is sometimes believed to be the basis for the garden of eden. Its not exactly related to your post but its pretty cool to see none the less. Michael Woods book "in the footsteps of Alexander" has really good images of this.

All the best... Spitamenes
bessusww
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by bessusww »

Thanks Spitamenese

I know I got a little carried away with the programe as Alexander foot notes keep Cropping up.

City Gardens.Euphrates,Tyre etc,,As you say having read the sources the gardens must have been great,According to the programe the Gardens were dated around 1500 BC and that would be about the Time the Babylonians were at there highest power and in Alexanders days the gardens were eminent.

I sometimes wonder with references to bibles etc if things have been borrowed tweaked and edited to be all put in.

The Story of the Jewish gardner and his fall from grace biblically meant that Eve ate the fruite and they were exiled.

The other side the lady said was that the Jewish king and gardner were thrown out of paradise when the Babylonions over ran Israel...Its all hypothetical of course...On the same token can it be also said the or a Babylonion king of his gardens was also driven out when the Babylonians were taken over by the Persians.

Maybe im into going to deep with my theories but at the root of my theory is Alexander.

Gods and faith etc..Maybe there is a god Im sure theres something and its more akin to a faith in someking of creator...And I do believe some people do come along that get noticed and become great..As much as Christianity can claim Jesus was of god,,,Id like to say so was Alexander in adifferent foremat and maybe just maybe the idea of unifying peoples by will of his armies and rule was his real ambition...Which obviously failed.

There again using Jesus doctrine of love and forgiveness also has failed. Its fair to say more people have died in a way connected to Jesus all man made by the way.

Peoples get hopld of these things twist and doctor them for there own capitalistic greeds.

Id like to say Jesus,Alexander,Mohamed, etc were all blades on a multitool Swiss army knife but humanity picks his favourite tool and ignores the rest
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:Bessusww,
You should try to find some arial view images of babylon in recent times. You can easily see the foundation remains of what could be the tower of babel. One of the ancient wonders. Its unmistakeable in scale compared to everything else in the city. I've seen paintings of the the tower and right across the main road would be the hanging gardens. Which is sometimes believed to be the basis for the garden of eden. Its not exactly related to your post but its pretty cool to see none the less. Michael Woods book "in the footsteps of Alexander" has really good images of this.

All the best... Spitamenes
Yes, it is generally accepted that the Tower Of Babel might well have been the temple called Etemenaki, the ziggurat in Babylon. It wasn't quite "just across the road" from Nebuchadnezzar's palace, where the hanging gardens were said to have been, but a bit further south in the city, along the processional way.

The problem with the Hanging Gardens is that they have never uncovered any evidence for their existence. Despite many mentions there's no description of whereabouts in the city they were, so it has been surmised that they must have been in Nebuchadnezzar's palace ... except there is no archaeological evidene for their existence. It is a major problem.

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spitamenes
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by spitamenes »

marcus wrote:
The problem with the Hanging Gardens is that they have never uncovered any evidence for their existence. Despite many mentions there's no description of whereabouts in the city they were, so it has been surmised that they must have been in Nebuchadnezzar's palace ... except there is no archaeological evidene for their existence. It is a major problem.

ATB
So were there any contemporary accounts of the hanging gardens? I would think that the gardens took an amazing amount of upkeep just to keep them from turning to dust, so by Alexanders day, if they weren't revered by the local satrap as much as the one who created them, they could have gone into disrepair and faded to nothing in just a couple years. That might be why we have heard nothing of them through Alexanders sources. And others as well.
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by Taphoi »

marcus wrote: The problem with the Hanging Gardens is that they have never uncovered any evidence for their existence. Despite many mentions there's no description of whereabouts in the city they were, so it has been surmised that they must have been in Nebuchadnezzar's palace ... except there is no archaeological evidene for their existence. It is a major problem.
Actually, I think there is an obvious answer. The Ephemerides say that Alexander lay in the gardens across the river from the palace while he was dying. They say these gardens contained a "great diving pool". More likely, this was the pool from which water was drawn up to irrigate the terraces of the gardens. In other words these were the Hanging Gardens, just as you would expect. Now look at Koldewey's map of Babylon (from my website). E - E is the modern Euphrates. AE is the ancient course of the Euphrates. K is the palace site (DK was a modern village). The ancient river ran between K and DK. Just across the ancient river from the palace you find the modern river, exactly where the Hanging Gardens should be. So the surprising thing would be if anybody had ever found any archaeological evidence for them, seeing as all such evidence is likely to have been long since washed away :!:
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spitamenes
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by spitamenes »

So were there any contemporary writings about the hanging gardens? Id say the garden where Alexander was recovering in is a good possibility for being the hanging gardens. But then again Id be willing to bet Babylon, as wealthy as it was, had many different gardens. Thanks for sharing the map Taphoi.
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by bessusww »

Well its fare to say its been said the Gardens were among the other wonders of the Ancient World as was the Statue of Rhodes. I think the Gardens were real any why not...The Babylonians had thewealth and creativity to do so and see no reason why the following Persians wouldnt maintain the gardens.

Also not long passed by from 2500 years ago till Alexander arrived there about 200 years..The famous gardens in England have lasted centuries.As Taphoi said...Rivers coasts etc all have altered over 200o years and subsequent rulers may have let the gardens rot away as the City is actually in Ruins at this time..

The oldest tree in England is supposed to be about a thousand years so I doubt any real evidence for the garden would be around today...Also as said Alexanders last days were spent round pools and gardens.

Another aspect of the gardens is the Gargoils guarding the gates I wonder if Alexander as is written clearly ignored gargoyles and south sayers and entered the city from the wrong sides.
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spitamenes
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by spitamenes »

bessusww wrote: Another aspect of the gardens is the Gargoils guarding the gates I wonder if Alexander as is written clearly ignored gargoyles and south sayers and entered the city from the wrong sides.
Well what I don't understand is Alexander was supposed to be so paranoid towards his death that he had seers around at all times and listened to much or all of what they had to say. Why would he completely ignore the priests who told him it wasn't wise for him to enter the city at that time? Its been said that they were trying to stall him because the local leaders didn't take care of his requests that he asked to be done before he came back. Maybe he knew that and that's why he didn't pay any attention to what they had to say. Just a thought...
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by bessusww »

Spitamenese


Im pretty sure it was a stalling tactic and Im pretty sure it was the tip of the Iceberg...Its been claimed when Alexander returned he went sadistic and MEglamanic .Thar he executed many many Rulers And Satraps he had left in control whilst he was away...Many Scholars point out that it was Paranoidical Atrocity.

On that aspect I agree many were executed but I also think they were not just randomly executed because Alexander was paranoid. In my view i think they were proobably guilty of Copying Harpalus who got away tith it not once but twice. Alexander cant have been that nasty or satanic to have pardoned him even once.

As you point out im sure He was aware of these little crooks creaming it whilst he was away. And as a result they were executed and punished.This theory adds another tooth to him been murdered. I would say they were all creaming it off in ways even his closest so called friends. If they had been then its another reason that the big cat was killed off.

Alexander has been labeled with atrocities but I believe most of them can be reasoned out
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by agesilaos »

Just a minor point but I think the earlier lists of wonders mention the WALLS of Babylon and that the Hanging Gardens replaced them later: I shall have to trawl through the texts now and find out the exact sources.
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Re: Maybe Alexander Died in The Garden Of Eden

Post by agesilaos »

The earliest references to the Hanging Gardens or 'pensile paradise' seem to be from Berosus, a Babylonian who wrote no earlier than the 290's BC: the work was dedicated to King Antiochos I whose sole reign began in 280 but who had been made King of the Upper satrapies earlier. The references are in Syncellus Chron. 220, Eusebios Praep Evan.lib 9 and 10, and Chron 49.

Strabo describes them thus, in Book 16
5 Babylon, too, lies in a plain; and the circuit of its wall is three hundred and eighty-five stadia. The thickness of its wall is thirty-two feet; the height thereof between the towers is fifty cubits; that of the towers is sixty cubits; and the passage on top of the wall is such that four-horse chariots can easily pass one another; and it is on this account that this and the hanging garden are called one of the Seven Wonders of the World. The garden is quadrangular in shape, and each side is four plethra in length. It consists of arched vaults, which are situated, one after another, on checkered, cube-like foundations. The checkered foundations, which are hollowed out, are covered so deep with earth that they admit of the largest of trees, having been constructed of baked brick and asphalt — the foundations themselves and the vaults and the arches. The ascent to the uppermost terrace-roofs is made by a stairway; and alongside these stairs there were screws, through which the water was continually conducted up into the garden from the Euphrates by those appointed for this purpose. For the river, a stadium in width, flows through the middle of the city; and the garden is on the bank of the river.
So Taphoi may well be right that the structures have been washed away. The earliest list of 'Wonders' seems to have been that of Antipater of Sidon, Gk Anth IX 58 dating to about 140BC
I have gazed on the walls of impregnable Babylon along which chariots may race, and on the Zeus by the banks of the Alpheus, I have seen the hanging gardens, and the Colossus of the Helios, the great man-made mountains of the lofty pyramids, and the gigantic tomb of Mausolus; but when I saw the sacred house of Artemis that towers to the clouds, the others were placed in the shade, for the sun himself has never looked upon its equal outside Olympus.
In other lists the walls are replaced by the Pharos.

Since none of the Alexander sources mention the Gardens we can assume that they had fallen into dis-repair, if indeed they weren't really at Ninevah as some now believe. However, since Alexander died in the Palace and not in the park, even if the real Garden of Eden was in Babylon, he did not die in it. The Biblical description probably is an amalgm of the Babylonian paradise and the Jerusalem temple hence the Euphrates is joined with three streams from Jerusalem the Pison, Gihon and Hidekkel.
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