AtG statue at site of Gaugamela?

[athenas owl]

artemisia, could you direct me to the part of the blog where this is discussed?

Another thing to keep in mind, Arbil is Kurdish territory, in fact it is the capitol of the autonomous region. And the Iraqi official, Zebari, is also Kurdiah. So that adds a certain element to it.

[marcus]

Gaugamela wasn't in Babylonia, either; so, arguably, whether or not he "liberated" the Babylonians isn't the point in this case.

Cheeky bugger!

I aim to please!

From the Greek's perspective it will have been the land of two rivers or Mesopotamia. It is likely located in the north of the province of Babylonia (or Assyria - if that is listed as a separate satrapy). In any case, Alexander not liberating Arbela hardly has the same ring to it...

Indeed. I'd need to check which satrapy Arbela fell into, but I am very sure that it *wasn't* Babylonia - far too far north. However, as you say, it was all Mesopotamia, and I'm sure the Greeks/Macedonians were less than interested in debating the point.

Still, there is a serious point to this - the Iraqis should have no particular problem about having a statue of Alexander at Erbil (or nearby) because he didn't "conquer" Mesopotamia in the standard meaning of the word. The Persians were occupiers, whether benevolent or aggressive, and Alexander occupied the area without putting everyone to fire and sword. Indeed, there is a big argument that he stimulated the economy of Babylon massively, before and after his 331BC stay there. The city's standing after 323BC remained high, right up to the point where the Seleucids lost it to the Parthians, even after it had ceased to be a capital.

No reason, as far as I can see, why there should be any problem with the Iraqis having a statue of Alexander there.

ATB

[amyntoros]

Anyway, Gaugamela was merely the location of the battle, which was fought between two foreign regimes. The people of Arbela had no choice over who ruled them, the Persians or the Macedonians, and life was hardly any different after the battle from before

As a comparison: there's a big tourist centre at Waterloo, as well ... (although, admittedly, there isn't a statue of Wellington, or Blucher).

And that was my point! I don't see anything wrong with tourist centers at old or ancient battlefields, but I would find it equally bizarre if a statue of Wellington were to be erected at Waterloo.

Best regards,

[marcus]

And that was my point! I don't see anything wrong with tourist centers at old or ancient battlefields, but I would find it equally bizarre if a statue of Wellington were to be erected at Waterloo.

Best regards,

I have to say, I wouldn't find it bizarre to find a statue of Wellington at Waterloo. In fact, I imagine the only reason there isn't one is because of the contribution of non-British soldiers in the battle - although Wellington was the C-in-C, it would make it seem a more strictly Anglo-army than it really was.

Anyway, there isn't one, so that's that!

ATB

[Paralus]

Indeed, there is a big argument that he stimulated the economy of Babylon massively, before and after his 331BC stay there. The city's standing after 323BC remained high, right up to the point where the Seleucids lost it to the Parthians, even after it had ceased to be a capital.

Yes, the Astronomical Diaries, Chronicle of the Successors and sundry commercial records show that. In reality, it was the same under the Achaemeninds - stories of "oppression" aside. The city was the capital of an agriculturally (and culturally) rich region. A priest of the right temple usually led a comfortable life - even if he became a "tax collector".

Stimulating the economy might be another matter. The immediate effect of Alexander's occupation of Babylon was a massive spike in food prices as his army consumed the greater part of the region's produce before having to move on. Inflation was alive and well in ancient times.

Bit like the Dubbya-driven massive spike in oil prices after the misadventure in Mesopotamia relly.

[Efstathios]

It is exactly as Marcus said it. And the iraqis would wish to have someone like ATG coming to liberate them instead of Bush. And we are talking about Iraq, not Iran. In Iran i find it unlikely for an ATG statue to be build.

[marcus]

Stimulating the economy might be another matter. The immediate effect of Alexander's occupation of Babylon was a massive spike in food prices as his army consumed the greater part of the region's produce before having to move on. Inflation was alive and well in ancient times.

Yes, but I wonder how far they consumed the "greater part" of the produce. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where, now), that the region was so fertile that they managed two harvests a year. Selling grain to Alexander's army can hardly have depleted their stocks so much; and a spike in food prices will have benefited the sellers - probably the temples more than anyone else?

But perhaps I got a bit overexcited. Let's say that it can hardly have harmed the economy, and after 323BC I doubt if inflation remained as rampant as it perhaps was earlier.

ATB

[artemisia]

Well, Amyntoros,
today still we don't live in a democracy. That's why I put it in quotation marks. The elections are just deceptions for us, the cattle of their religion of money, the elected presidents don't rule in reality, but the certain well known and hidden circle behind them. The presidents are puppets, and if they don't obey, the circle kills them.
Or is there still anybody in America who believes that the Twin Towers collapsed because of some muslim fanatics? The pretext for american world-war, the sacrifice of 3000 Americans for 5 Billion Dollars insurance in the pocket of one person, the oil of Irak, the opium of Afghanistan, spending already purchased bombs before they expire.....

[artemisia]

Hi, Athenas Owl
The greek-irakian cooperation

Athens News Agency explains, "The establishment of a Greek Economic and Commercial Affairs Office in Iraq was decided on Tuesday during a meeting in Athens between foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis and her Iraqi counterpart Hoshyar Zebari, as well as Greece's assistance in the protection of Iraq's cultural heritage and erecting a statue of Alexander the Great in Gaugamela."
At the briefing following their meeting, Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis declared, "It is with great pleasure that I once again welcome Iraqi Foreign Minister Mr. Hoshyar Zebari to Athens. I am happy that we have the opportunity to host him in Greece once again. And this, of course, underscores and confirms the traditional relations of mutual trust and friendship between the Greek and Iraqi peoples. We had a very substantial discussion on a series of issues of bilateral and broader interest, as well as on developments in the Middle East, of course. Greece has supported Iraq with all its power on a political and economic level so as to stabilize the democracy and the country which has experienced such difficult times in recent years. As you know, we will be opening an trade office in Arbil. We jointly observed that our economic cooperation must be strengthened. At the same time, we agreed that we will intensify our cooperation in the cultural sector. As you know, Iraq's cultural heritage was hard hit by the destruction of ancient sites and artifacts, and Greece, with its particular sensitivity to this issue, will help with know how and financing to rebuild the museums of Iraq. My friend the Minister and I also agreed on the raising of a monument to Alexander the Great in Gavgamila, symbolizing precisely the interaction of cultures in this critical region. In closing, I think it is obvious, but I want to stress this, that Greece is firmly in favour of the unity, independence and territorial integrity of Iraq, and, of course, actively supports its efforts to win a future of stability and development."

[marcus]

Well, Amyntoros,
today still we don't live in a democracy. That's why I put it in quotation marks. The elections are just deceptions for us, the cattle of their religion of money, the elected presidents don't rule in reality, but the certain well known and hidden circle behind them. The presidents are puppets, and if they don't obey, the circle kills them.
Or is there still anybody in America who believes that the Twin Towers collapsed because of some muslim fanatics? The pretext for american world-war, the sacrifice of 3000 Americans for 5 Billion Dollars insurance in the pocket of one person, the oil of Irak, the opium of Afghanistan, spending already purchased bombs before they expire.....

That old Illuminati-type conspiracy theory again, eh? Blimey, next you'll be telling us that Alexander the Great was poisoned by a cartel of his senior generals ...

ATB

[Nikas]

Greetings,

It has indeed been a long time since I have posted among you merry folks, although I must admit to occasionally lurking around the edges from time to time. Now, what has compelled me to take the time to have to pen a response, is what appears to be a wee bit of unfair innuendo. It seems like the topic of erecting a statue of Alexander at Guagemala ilicits much "amazement" that the Greek Government (that mischeivous descendant of Hellenistic Athens) would wish to erect a statue of it's very famous conqueror of the Greeks. The gall! I do find it fascinating that while you profess to hold a certain "rule" of disallowing a so-called "Greek-Macedonian" debate to permeate these boards, some of you can clearly make such an insidious and most obvious implication that the Greeks most surely are odd for erecting statues and cults to these "Macedonians" conquerors. Yet, I do not see (perhaps I have missed it?) a word on the bizarre erection of statues, highways and airports in FYROM. Not that modern politics are the purvey of this forum, but hey, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I suppose what I am saying, as Philip II was quoted as saying, let's call a spade a spade...

[Paralus]

I do find it fascinating that while you profess to hold a certain "rule" of disallowing a so-called "Greek-Macedonian" debate to permeate these boards, some of you can clearly make such an insidious and most obvious implication that the Greeks most surely are odd for erecting statues and cults to these "Macedonians" conquerors. Yet, I do not see (perhaps I have missed it?) a word on the bizarre erection of statues, highways and airports in FYROM. Not that modern politics are the purvey of this forum, but hey, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I suppose what I am saying, as Philip II was quoted as saying, let's call a spade a spade...

You singularly miss the point - wilfully I'd think. There is nothing here that relates to the - thouroughly modern - argument over boundaries and ethnicity; yet you make it. For what reason?

As I started this "digression" I will state it plainly: I - that being me personally - find it humourous that Athens is still erecting statues to Macedonian conquerors. Nothing more; nothing less. The distinction between Athens (city state) and Athens (capital of modern Greece) is plain. The irony, to me, remains. I do not think anyone has suggessted that Athens (Greece) is establishing a "cult" to any Macedonian conqueror with this proposed monument. Have it as you like though.

As to "insidious and most obvious" implications about Greeks honouring Macedonians, the Athenians, after Crannon, were practising lickspittles to their ever altering Macedonian overlords.

[Nikas]

I do find it fascinating that while you profess to hold a certain "rule" of disallowing a so-called "Greek-Macedonian" debate to permeate these boards, some of you can clearly make such an insidious and most obvious implication that the Greeks most surely are odd for erecting statues and cults to these "Macedonians" conquerors. Yet, I do not see (perhaps I have missed it?) a word on the bizarre erection of statues, highways and airports in FYROM. Not that modern politics are the purvey of this forum, but hey, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I suppose what I am saying, as Philip II was quoted as saying, let's call a spade a spade...

You singularly miss the point - wilfully I'd think. There is nothing here that relates to the - thouroughly modern - argument over boundaries and ethnicity; yet you make it. For what reason?

As I started this "digression" I will state it plainly: I - that being me personally - find it humourous that Athens is still erecting statues to Macedonian conquerors. Nothing more; nothing less. The distinction between Athens (city state) and Athens (capital of modern Greece) is plain. The irony, to me, remains. I do not think anyone has suggessted that Athens (Greece) is establishing a "cult" to any Macedonian conqueror with this proposed monument. Have it as you like though.

As to "insidious and most obvious" implications about Greeks honouring Macedonians, the Athenians, after Crannon, were practising lickspittles to their ever altering Macedonian overlords.

Miss the point? I don't believe so. Athens today is simply not a straight comparison to the Hellenistic Athenian city state, seeing as the modern capital represents all of modern Greece, including those self-same Macedonians (pretty big province, lots of electoral votes, nice ruins, pretty ladies, a little cold during the winter). One who sits on my side of the fence would thus say the Macedonians are simply erecting a statue to a very famous Macedonian, by a government headed by a Macedonian Prime Minister. No? Thus my point remains, is it a sleight-of-hand?
Nonetheless, perhaps I read into it too much, but I confess to being a little sensitive on the subject, with certain obvious "ironies" from other certain modern intrepretations of "boundaries and ethnicities" coupled with airports and statues. Do you also see the irony in the naming of certain places where hardly an ancient Macedonian set foot? Well, I suppose Australia has a Wellington street , park, or something somewhere, but I doubt there is a Gengis Khan International Airport in Sydney (I have unfortunately not had the pleasure of visiting).
I also wonder if those Macedonians were also "practising lickspittles" when they were begging those Athenian playrights and philosophers to bring some good ole Attic sophistication to grace their rather rowdy, and slightly backward humble abodes, but hey, it's all in the family anyways.

[Paralus]

[Nonetheless, if I read into it too much, I confess to being a little sensitive on the subject...

Indeed.

I have made it clear that Athens as a capital does not directly relate Athens as a city state. I still see irony in the proposal (by necessity of course) coming from Athens.

I also wonder if those Macedonians were also "practising lickspittles" when they were begging those Athenian playrights and philosophers to bring some good ole Attic sophistication to grace their rather rowdy, and slightly backward, humble abodes, but hey, it's all in the family anyways.

I assume you refer to Archelaus? Sedulous aping, in an attempt to appear more "civilised" maybe? Given the results, it would appear that his nobility much preferred wine, women, boars and boys to geometry and flights of philosophy!

The point is more the sorry state of the once powerful and imperial Athens busily "crawling" to her altering Macedonian conquerors. That paean to Demetrius is a corker of an example. Themistocles, Cimon, Pericles, Demosthenes and, possibly, even Alcibiades will have fallen upon their spears at the state of their "country".

Ok, ok - a little exaggeration for effect: Alcibiades will have promptly offered his services to Philip II and likely died a horrible death having warmed Olympias' bed and romped with the pages one time too many.

[Nikas]

I assume you refer to Archelaus? Sedulous aping, in an attempt to appear more "civilised" maybe? Given the results, it would appear that his nobility much preferred wine, women, boars and boys to geometry and flights of philosophy!

The point is more the sorry state of the once powerful and imperial Athens busily "crawling" to her altering Macedonian conquerors. That paean to Demetrius is a corker of an example. Themistocles, Cimon, Pericles, Demosthenes and, possibly, even Alcibiades will have fallen upon their spears at the state of their "country".

Ok, ok - a little exaggeration for effect: Alcibiades will have promptly offered his services to Philip II and likely died a horrible death having warmed Olympias' bed and romped with the pages one time too many.

Indeed, Archelaus of jilted lover fame. Nothing to boost the old civilized reputation than a healthy appreciation of watered-down wine-drinking Athenian uber-intellectuals. It is unfortunate that those incorrigible Macedonians did not have their priorities right! Sophistic musings or parties that would strip the paint off of any Doric column!

The point is well taken. I seem to recall a funeral oration that bemoaned that those heroes of old now being deprived of their well-earned rest by the sad fall from imperialistic grace of their decadent descendants. Mind you Alcibiades would have ended up being Alexander's "true" father (Nectanebo and Ammon notwithstanding), prompting Alexander's reclamation of his "Athenian" patrimony. Perhaps then the Athenians would have begrudged him a little nod for all those efforts to win their admiraton.